DS9 on blu ray?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by borgboy, Nov 28, 2013.

  1. Beta-Z

    Beta-Z Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    And? As you can see, always something new came around the corner just in time. After Blu-ray let it be some kind of sticks or memory cards or even HD-downloads that we could purchase.
    What's the problem?

    Why? Just because you can't wait? ;)

    Again, why? They want to continue making money of it, and in order to do so, one day or another - and rather sooner than later - DS9 will have to stand up to the HD-standard, otherwise they won't be able to secessfully sell it to networks to make money of it anymore.

    Because - as you said:
    ;)

    Can't you see all that "buy the TNG seasons on Blu-ray in order to get DS9 remastered" bla bla is just there to cash the cow?
    Well i for myself don't fall for that kind of bull they're handling me anymore.
    Because whatever the sales numbers are - in future they'll HAVE to remaster DS9 (and VGR) ANYWAY, otherwise: bye-bye monedas!

    And if they do it the same way or just upscale the SFX for the other two shows from SD will be their decision, and the BD sales numbers of TNG won't have much influence on that IMHO.

    So just lean back and relax folks. I'm VERY sure DS9 in HD is not a question of "IF", it's just a question of "when".

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  2. benjaminh

    benjaminh Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, a lot of people over the years have been saying a variation of "it's almost guaranteed that they are redoing DS9 for HD." I used to buy it, but not so much anymore. My hope isn't completely gone, or I probably wouldn't keep posting here and elsewhere, but it's declined.

    What your whole argument doesn't take into account is this: Yes, without a remaster they'll slowly stop making as much money from DS9. But it seems that their studio number crunchers might have already come up with something like this:

    DS9 rebuild costs: c. $15 million

    Added revenue from DS9 rebuild: c. $12 million

    In other words, there's a chance they don't see this as more money for them, but less money for them. That's where you and all the optimists seem to be going down a path that I just don't feel certain about.

    I hope that hasn't happened. But the very fact that FrontierTrek keeps saying, over and over, more or less: CBS has evaluated rebuilding DS9 (i.e. crunched the numbers) and CBS has decided they are not going to do DS9 for HD at this time, seems to indicate that maybe some numbers more or less like I've posted above may have been generated.

    But even if that's true, I do hold out a slender hope that the decision could be reversed.

    As I keep saying, the key is probably someone to fund it, just like they had funding for TOS and TNG. If Jeff Bezos happens to like DS9 (as he liked the Washington Post, which also isn't a money maker), and he decides to picks up the phone tomorrow and call CBS-D, it could well happen....At least that's my admittedly optimistic fantasy.
     
  3. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    I just watched "Tears of the Prophets" on the same TV and Bluray player where I watch the TNG BD and, I must say, the CGI actually looked quite decent (though I am not sure how it would look on a bigger TV or projected on wall), unlike the live action, which looked quite fuzzy and undefined.

    In other words, if remastering DS9 only becomes possible if they have to upconvert the CGI, go for it, i say!

    My biggest fear would be the mixed live action/CGI scenes; would it be possible to use the hd source material for the live action part and insert the upconverted CGI where needed?
     
  4. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    I don't think that's possible. The final FX shots in SD are part of the SD episode master tapes mixed in with the live action. There's no way to separate the elements in the video master tape.
     
  5. Salinga

    Salinga Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You could overlay the HD live action over the finished SD shot (using the green screen areas as "holes").
     
  6. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Yeah, but there wouldn't be a green screen. There's only the completed episode on the master tapes -- FX/live action mix -- with no way to separate elements. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.
     
  7. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think the idea is for the live action to get remastered just like the TNG project, and then upres the CGI from the SD masters and insert it into the newly remastered live action. Wouldn't work for all shots.
     
  8. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Yeah, but my point is that besides the exterior space shots, the FX shots are inseparable from the live action. The SD FX aren't separate elements. The FX and live action were mixed together for the final episode video master and are now one shot. So you can't just insert the SD FX into HD live action.
     
  9. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course you can. It's just that it will look like shit.
     
  10. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Basically. It'd be...reverse rotoscoping :)
     
  11. Salinga

    Salinga Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No, it only would work for green screen SFX like stars through windows, viewscreens and actors in front of a green screen wall.
     
  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Captain Captain

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    Well, I guess that in those cases CBS could simply redo th FX, like they are doing with TNG. Probably talking about phaser shots, transporter effects, Odo's morphs, and the like. Shouldn't be too expensive.

    It's the predominant use of CGI beginning with Season 6, including those huge fleet battles, which worries me. Redoing those would probably cost prohibitive.

    Also rewatched "Sacrifice of Angels" and, like before, the CGI seemed quite crisp.

    Strangely, the CGI sequences in Voyager's "Scorpion" and "Year of Hell" looked much softer and low res. Though that's another issue...

    Enterprise, Firefly and Farscape all got BD releases with upconverted CGI and, from what I have seen, look quite alright (though Farscape suffers in the live action shots, since they simple upconverted the 576i PAL master tapes).

    Of course, a real remaster in the same vein of those two famous videos from youtube would be much better, but one must be willing to accept the possible...
     
  13. USS KG5

    USS KG5 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I honestly think if they do DS9, due to the amount of CGI within scenes (apparently they used primitive CG to get rid of set clutter, insert displays etc) they will have to do it right or not at all.

    All the modern treks (with the exception of Enterprise) look absolutely appalling on DVD, even without the harsh glare of HD. They weren't just SD material, they were poor quality SD material. I've watched a few episodes of VGR recently on Amazon and the quality is piss poor.

    Not only would an upscaling be a rip off for fans, I'm dubious as to whether it would work at all.

    When we hear something more definitive from an insider I'll be interested to know what has gone on - maybe they have worked on the principle that with physical media dying on its ass they can't afford to do a blu ray release, so for it to happen someone like Netflix or Amazon would have to actually pay for the remaster, in exchange for exclusive streaming rights for a few years. Be a tough sell.
     
  14. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    A straight upscale would be a mess. A hybrid upscale, where the film is rescanned, but the effects are kept in SD (like the treatment recently afforded for The X-Files) might be a more budgetale solution, although some posters here seem to be suggesting that the SD effects elements don't exist separately from the composited masters?
     
  15. Salinga

    Salinga Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Some SD material can be effectivly upscaled, for example by unblurring the edges of the upscaled picture.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's a good example of why upscaling is a bad idea. That image was tweaked within an inch of its life. It got "repainted", had the lights added in anew, and in the end lost detail because no one working on it noticed. (Where is the "X" shape inside the bay?)
     
  17. benjaminh

    benjaminh Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    FrontierTrek said a while ago that he hoped, at some point, to write an article for Trekcore.com about the issues surrounding a possible rebuild of DS9. If it is written, I imagine it will make for depressing reading. But I hope FT gets to that at some point, for I think it might answer some of the questions we have here, such as:

    Is a partial HD redo of DS9 possible or desirable?
    (I would guess not.)

    Why can't the old CGI assets, many of which survive and were "overbuilt" according to that investigation by Trekcore a couple of years ago, be reused with some touchups to cut the cost of a rebuild?

    Has Netflix or Amazon been approached with the idea of helping out on a DS9 rebuild in exchange for exclusive streaming rights in HD?

    Would a generous selection of 80 or so episodes of DS9 be more economically viable than all 7 seasons?
    (Again, probably not an option, but has it even been considered?)

    Is the Star Trek rebuild "dream team" about to disband for the foreseeable future?

    How can CBS just leave these hundreds of millions of dollars of top-quality, brand-name, sci fi programming in dreary SD form, when the HD assets are sitting in a salt mine in Pennsylvania?
    (I know. It's the money.)

    etc.

    I do think rebuilds of DS9 and Voyager would become dramatically more marketable if there were to be a NEW Star Trek show set in the PRIME universe. A Star Trek show set in the Prime universe on Netflix or Amazon would allow for guest stars from the casts of DS9, Voyager, and even TNG. And then, suddenly, those shows would become living entities again, rather than part of the "dead past." Of course, as William Faulkner once wrote, "The past is never dead. It's not even past."

    Some might wonder whether the Prime universe and the JJA universe can peacefully coexist. Of course they can. JJA's own show Fringe was all about alternate realities. And alternate realities go all through the various Treks, starting with City on the Edge of Forever in 1967. JJA may not like it, but he'll understand. And anyway, he's busy with that other Star franchise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  18. timtonruben359

    timtonruben359 Commander Red Shirt

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    My guess is that CBS has decided either we do a full HD restore or not at all. I think there's a question about sales if we're only dealing with a partial restore. Would fans be willing to shell out money for what's basically some HD with SD up-convert.

    I know that there's been some interest expressed by netflix in the possibility of producing or at least distributing a new Star Trek show, but I don't know anything about funding HD upgrades for DS9 or VOY. An interesting idea.

    Personally I still believe there would be an HD upgrade of DS9 and VOY before a new Trek show. CBS doesn't seem (at this stage) overly interested in bringing Trek back to TV and a HD upgrade is significantly less of an investment.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I think this is wishful thinking by the fan community. I've seen nothing that substantiates the story.
     
  20. timtonruben359

    timtonruben359 Commander Red Shirt

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    According to Larry Nemeck of Trekland, Netflix has made overtures to CBS about Star Trek but nothing has come of them at this point.

    http://larrynemecek.blogspot.ca/2014/06/hold-your-horsestheres-no-netflix-cbs.html