Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Kevman7987, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Stealth in space--[near magical] Klingon/Romulan cloaking device aside--would be damn near impossible. Unless you had a way of shielding thermal and EM changes (just off the top of my head, the warp core along has to bleed off a lot of exotic radiation types) in the local area, a ship would stick out like a sore thumb. Granted, distance is your friend, further out you are from the observer, the better the chance that you could bleed into the cosmic background noise. But in the close up fistfights we see as the norm in Trek, forget about it.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    It's not that difficult, really - the laws of thermodynamics have nothing against directing your thermal emissions. You could always pack your thermal load in a beam or stream that you point away from the enemy, thus presenting an almost absolutely cold face towards him.

    Of course, you can also store your emissions aboard, in a sink of some sort, for the duration of the stealth mission. You then dump the "hot potato" when convenient, or even use it as a weapon!

    As for the use of paint, one might argue that Kirk's original "starship grey" would be a good compromise between low albedo (for avoiding being seen because of reflected light) and low absorption (for avoiding being seen because of collected and radiated heat). Anything lighter, and local sunlight would reveal you; anything darker, and you become a sponge of energy that you then radiate in the infrared range.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not even that. Any given sensor device has a finite resolution for an object at a particular distance away; the farther away that object is, the bigger it would have to be for the sensor to detect it at all. For telescopes, the usual solution is longer exposures -- you point your sensors in a specific direction for several minutes or even hours -- so that small, dim objects would finally become detectable. A sensor device that's designed to sweep the entire sky on a regular basis and detect other objects would have a far more limited range and a more limited resolution.

    Depends on what you mean by "up close." 500 to 1000km, active scans will probably detect anything big enough to pose a threat. Beyond that you need more powerful radars and a general idea of where to search.
     
  4. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Up close as what we see on a regular basis in Trek. Stealth tech (cloaks, again, aside) isn't going to get you up close like we've seen regularly in post TWOK Trek. u
     
  5. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually that's pretty much the case for modern stealth fighters as well: if you're within dogfight range of an enemy aircraft, you're going to be visible to him no matter what you're flying; if he can't physically see you, his radar definitely will.

    Same in the more analogous case of submarines: once you get into (or close to) torpedo range you won't have THAT much trouble tracking your target; it's getting into range in the first place -- or knowing that there's anything there to get into range WITH -- that presents the real challenge.

    My interpretation if cloaking devices is that they're a brute force method of achieving stealth: the enemy's scanning space, so you jam his sensors in such a way that he can't easily detect your ship unless he gets close enough to detect either your energy displacement or the radiation from your weapon systems. Vengeance's design may be a more passive approach: the enemy's scanning space, so you construct your starship out of a material and with a design that won't fully register on his sensors unless you're looking directly at it and you don't usually know where to look unless it draws attention to itself first.

    FYI, there's already precedent for this in Trek: Baran's pirate vessel in "Gambit" is outfitted with EXACTLY this kind of technology, to the point that the Enterprise has difficulty tracking it at a distance and also has trouble scanning the entire of the vessel. The "stealth coating" on the pirate ship is primitive by 24th century standards -- if still marginally effective -- but in the 23rd, it's almost certainly cutting-edge.
     
  6. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    Have we ever seen a black Federation ship? Have they ever deviated from white, blue, and shades of gray?
     
  7. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Wait a sec, Vengeance IS black (albeit Hollywood black which isn't actually black but lots of shades of very very very dark grey). And I saw a behind the scenes interview there they say it is a stealth ship!
     
  8. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It makes sense the Federation KGB wouldn't want to be seen until they blow you up. :D
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Curiously, though, Kirk had no trouble at all seeing the Vengeance...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ain't it?
     
  11. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    Hmmmmm.... definitely can't wait for the bluray.
     
  12. saddestmoon

    saddestmoon Commander Red Shirt

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    The USS Vengeance is fast becoming one of my favourite ST starship designs - ever! :)
     
  13. trevanian

    trevanian Rear Admiral

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    The holoship in INS is something of a departure shape-wise, but I'm a little vague on its color, even after looking at pictures of it. It looks different in the water than it does in space. It ain't black, though.
     
  14. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would consider the holoshop "unmarked" though, similar to the Vengeance.
     
  15. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    From Insurrection. We never really saw much of the holoship exterior.
     
  16. saddestmoon

    saddestmoon Commander Red Shirt

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    Based on the micromachines toy (and having not seen the TNG episode), I used to think the USS Stargazer was yellow... ;)
     
  17. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

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    Wasn't it yellow in Picard's Ready Room too?
     
  18. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. The Sternbach article about the development of the class says it's warp stress paint.

    I was struck today re-watching the film. Vengeance is said to be a dedicated warship. Yet, she's pretty effing big to not have science labs or anything of the like. What do you suppose occupies the majority of her interior? Hangars and weapons stores? Barracks?
     
  19. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    All of the above. If and when the ship is ever fitted out for a real mission, that is. Something else to consider is that the Section 31 base under London doesn't only have those new long-range torpedoes lying around, it also has those funny looking shelves that contain row upon row upon row of sleek-looking transport craft carrying both packs of torpedoes and some much larger objects that might be phaser cannons or missiles or something.

    We're not really sure what it means for Vengeance to BE a pure warship since Starfleet almost never builds those kinds of ships. Heavy firepower is a must, obviously, but as I've said in many threads, it seems that most wars are actually fought on the ground anyway and a ship the size of Vengeance would make a very effective staging area and orbital support system for a battalion of troops.
     
  20. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder is Vengeance is meant to be more a command ship? She's got the guns to hold her own, but--the attack on Enterprise aside (and that's more Kirk forcing Marcus's hand than any real plan)--I got the impression she's meant to hang out in and fire from a distance. Basically,the enemy never knows what's coming or who did it.