Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Kevman7987, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Why should a mining rig necessarily have energy weapons? Or weapons at all?

    The missiles could well be mining ordnance, designed to penetrate hard rock. Sure, death rays could also be used for the purpose, and Nero has a really big one for exactly this - but having the big beam can be taken both as indication for and counter-indication against the existence of smaller beams.

    In any case, we never saw any sort of secondary weaponry, beam or otherwise. If Nero says "Fire everything!" and all we see is missiles, then that's pretty good evidence that the missiles are everything he has.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  2. anotherdemon

    anotherdemon Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Whether it's a mining ship or mining ship with a Borg skingraph, the torpedoes are all she seems to have. Whether to blow up asteroids or put craters in planetoids -- or to blow starships apart due to being filled with Borg slurm, it's what she has and uses.

    They work, but they don't seem to be shielded to protect them from phaser fire -- a big flaw when you think about it.

    The fleet at Vulcan probably died so easily due to not having their weapons fire directed at the torpedoes, as for all they know, they can't shoot them down (they can assume they're like torpedoes they're familiar with). The same with the Klingon armada -- they don't seem to rely on phasers either, so they'd be even worst off by just slinging photons, magnetic charges and disruptor bursts at Narada.

    Enterprise figured it out (it's technically easier to shoot down something coming at you than it is crossing your path too).

    I doubt they could have killed Narada though via conventional means. Even with Vengeance. Kelvin warping into her didn't, and that's a lot of energy.

    After Enterprise showed how easy it is to shoot down the torps, you can bet any prior engagement will end in a stalemate, with Narada withdrawing due to being unable to get hits and the other vessels unable to fatally wound her.

    Narada would need to upgrade her weapons -- probably by rejoining the Romulan Star Empire. Which would make her very powerful then -- she probably has more than enough power for Plasma Torpedoes and Cloaking from that era. A dozen plasma torp tubes would probably ruin the day for anything in that era, fleet or otherwise, in addition to throwing her standard missiles out to draw phaser fire.

    Narada herself seemed far too durable for typical weapons of that era. I don't think Vengeance is anywhere close to the answer.
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Not against asteroids, which very rarely fire back, I guess.

    Kirk seemed to think that shooting down Starfleet torpedoes with phasers was a viable technique in ST2:TWoK, though - it simply was "too late", as Sulu put it. Perhaps photorps are harder to kill than Nero's torps, perhaps not. But apparently it's not worth the hassle to equip late 23rd or 24th century ships with anti-torpedo phasers; diverting that power to shields is the tactically preferred option.

    Would they assume they can't, when the Enterprise and the Kelvin could?

    We can of course assume they can't shoot, period - perhaps most of those ships had too few and too poorly trained crew to actually be combat-capable?

    Except Sulu shot down targets that were crossing his path. And that's actually easier, because things coming straight at you can easily maneuver erratically from side to side, creating high angular velocities, whereas things flying past you create less erratic paths with lower angular velocities with the same maneuvers. Plus there's less terror involved...

    The Kelvin didn't go FTL from what we observed. But yeah, the sheer bulk of the target seems to protect it from most things.

    Then again, the impact of the Kelvin rendered the Narada incapable of firing at the shuttles, or pursuing them. Basically, then, if a single cadet ship rammed the mining rig, the rest could spend the following two days firing at the rig with impunity! Surely that would give some results.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  4. anotherdemon

    anotherdemon Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Yeah, rocks in space don't appear to need a shielded torpedo. If they were filled with Borg slurm (as some of the stuff states), you'd think they'd be shielded. However, we do see them split up into fragments when near their target, which seem to cause significant damage themselves (each fragment). Multiple warheads to preclude them from all being shot down when incoming? Multiple warheads to cause as much damage as possible due to various systems being hit (you just need one BB to hit the eye...). That's one interesting thing I find about them anyway, and something a self-propelled mining charge wouldn't really need. You'd just need a big boom to fragment a rock up to a planetoid in size

    I can't recall that scene, but if Starfleet thinks they can during a similar period, then shields or not probably don't matter (you couldn't really put much of a shield on a torpedo anyway). Yeah, from all the powers we see, having the shields as powerful as you can make them so that they can take the hit is how they go. Narada's torps easily breaching the shields seem to be their biggest point. For example, the computer simulation with the Klingon warbirds blowing up with a single photon hit once shields are down needn't be unrealistic -- simulations usually are accurate within a certain level of parameters. This could jive with Sulu warning about a second hit being catastrophic -- as we see from Kelvin, the torpedoes of Narada don't seem to be as actually destructive as the photons in the simulator, but they can get through shields. Enterprise probably could have taken the second one barring an unlucky hit, but that'd be academic, as Narada could kill her at her leisure.

    You generally have to compute a heap of lead and whatnot when firing at objects crossing your bow. Whereas if they're coming straight on, it's often just point and click for the computer -- unless you have something I forgot about with Narada's torps, the multiple warheads that are released. Though this still wouldn't preclude phasers shooting them down as soon as they're launched. There's lots of precedence in our world of point defense systems not being switched on, even though they were technically able to shoot down the incoming missile fairly easily (USS Cole and that Israeli corvette. INS Hanit I think she was called). Enterprise, the Vulcan fleet, and Kelvin all probably weren't at combat readiness (just putting people on "Red Alert" isn't the same as being ready for wartime) -- this often happens when there's a single event that isn't deemed a wartime threat. I bet if Narada was still active, focusing phasers on the shield piercing torpedoes would be a priority (with stuff like photons used for anti-shipping work).

    I recall Orci (?) stated Kelvin went to warp right at the last moment, though like with the Borg stuff, I guess that's not entirely canon. Still, Kelvin was one big damn photon. :P I guess throwing several starships at Narada with no crew and phasers set on maximum point defense, could at least knock the hell out of it so as standard weapons may eventually blow her apart.

    I would have made something the size of Vengeance, but with dozens of fast firing photon tubes along the bow (big torps so as to have very big antimatter warheads and possibly a warp function, just way bigger than what Marcus had -- like mini-Dreadnought from Voyager without the weapons and a larger warhead; 1,000 kilograms of antimatter doesn't take up much space); standoff at range and sling them until empty. Warp back to a tender or base to reload, and warp back into the fray. Large magazines for the same torpedoes so to have decent endurance (take a look at Vengeance's hangar; you could fit hundreds of large torpedoes in there). Lots of point defense phasers on the dorsal and ventral surface, and with the saucer section more angled to a point, so most of the PD weapons can have LOS.
     
  5. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    I was pretty underwhelmed. It looked like something out of Berman Trek. It was cool seeing it crash, though.
     
  6. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Am I the only one that thinks III should feature a new-build, slightly less war-oriented version of the ship in standard Starfleet colors named Excelsior?
     
  7. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

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    This.
     
  8. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    +1 Shame they didn't finish the STII/STIII homage and have the Vengeance be the Excelsior.

    One thing that bugs me (a very very little, just sticks out now and then): What's up with the center cut out of the saucer? What purpose, beyond looking cool, does it server? Granted it makes the Vengeance look like something out of STO, but beyond that...well why?
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Supposedly, the big bad cannon swung down from there. And the order that Marcus gave to get the cannon lowered was "aft torpedoes", which basically only makes sense if he was ordering steerable torpedo launchers to fire aft...

    The fancy launchers apparently are a rare and expensive resource, and the ship can only carry two, so it makes sense to cut pieces out of the ship to give these weapons the widest possible cones of fire. (Or at least this is a rationalization that has some hope of holding water, unless future screencaps reveal that the launchers cannot make such use of the hole after all!)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    KLINGON COMMANDER: Target the saucer section! Fire!

    (torpedoes harmlessly pass through saucer hole)

    ADMIRAL MARCUS: :cool:
     
  11. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The interior of the cut appears to contain several small shuttlebays, probably intended to house troop transports or fighter craft. That the bridge is in a pod in the center of this suggests that the "main bridge" is just one of several control centers there, with some lower levels containing a CIC and/or approach control tower to help direct local traffic (like the pri-fly on an aircraft carrier's island).

    The large bays on the secondary hull may also be meant for fighters and shuttles but I would guess are probably meant to store hundreds of ground vehicles used by infantry units.
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In a way, it makes sense to have your troop debarkation craft housed near where your troops live, leaving the secondary hull bay for standard shuttles and fighters.

    I suppose the only reason for having hull cut-outs at all is because you want more edge real estate, and the only logical reason for that is to have either more windows or more doors.
     
  13. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    It's a big ship, (1400+ Meters z0mg that is too bigz for the crude 23rd century techz!) instead of having to fly dozens of craft nearly a mile to the back of the ship, you can enter the middle of the saucer.
     
  14. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, but navigating around the island and into the saucer cutout to land would suck a bit. At the least it would be awkward.
     
  15. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ No more so than parking in the Enterprise shuttlebay.

    And noticeably less so than landing on a real-world aircraft carrier.
     
  16. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    If 10-20 shuttles wanted to land by conventional means (the back of the ship with one single entrance) you will have the "after you sir, nooo after you sir" situation. A queue of shuttles cost valuable time.

    If you have ring of shuttle bays in the saucer it could concurrently land all shuttles, and much more than a single entrance on the secondary hull could dream of.

    Failing this, I just think the cutaway looks cool anyway.
     
  17. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Eh, you're right. I stand corrected.
     
  18. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    Yes! Why are we back to gunmetal gray? Definitely felt like a step backward for the franchise.

    If they wanted to go for something truly impressive, how about black? I'm thinking about current stealth technology, moreover the Monitor from Shatner's novels. Consider the awesomeness of a ship difficult for an enemy to see even under normal running. Cinematic challenges (how could the audience see it?) could be addressed by sunlight/starlight reflecivity... or just shots where thing self illuminates, or for dramatic purposes, you don't know its even there until you notice something obstructing distant stars. With some imagination, there's tons of potential here. Wasted IMO on Vengeance, which looked like a generic Sovereign design.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2013
  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure that a starship's color makes any difference. Sensors can still pick it up. Unless it has a cloaking device, in which case color wouldn't matter anyway.
     
  20. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, maybe the dark color is indicative of some sort of detection-resistant coating, similar to our modern-day stealth aircraft.
     

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