Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Kevman7987, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. Neumann

    Neumann Captain Captain

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    The Vengeance would have been able to sustain for some time the Narada attacking yet it wouldn't have been able to defeat her.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Those feats took place after Nero acquired his red matter, though. And off camera at that. We don't even know whether Nero destroyed any Klingon ships for real: the report of such destruction supposedly sends Starfleet away from defending Vulcan and Earth, and the timing is so good this must be a Nero-engineered ruse. Why would Nero bother to involve real Klingons in his ruse, rather than just a false message?

    (We do know he is in the habit of sending false messages. The SOS from Vulcan must have been Nero's doing as well, because there was no geological instability when it was sent; the drill only began drilling later on, with the fleet already en route, as we saw when Amanda rushed to the balcony.)

    The two times Nero's ship tried to tackle a shielded vessel, she took her sweet time to get any visible results - the first time almost getting rammed as the result. The Narada was no combatant, apparently, unable to sustain fire or take much return fire. She was simply a big platform to fire from.

    Why this would prompt Starfleet to take any action is another unanswered question. The mining rigs of future madmen should not be a strategic concern to the organization!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One of them would have been before he acquired the red matter, but it doesn't matter, because he didn't use the red matter to accomplish them, just the missiles on his ship.

    That's irrelevant, especially in the case of the Federation fleet: we see their wreckage.

    That plot point is, of course, a relic of the prison planet escape plotline from the deleted scenes. As such, it was assuredly meant to be a real incident before that plotline was effectively cut from the film. So the Narada was considered strong enough to do that at that point. Are we to assume that when the prison escape material was cut from the film the Narada was made weaker as a result?
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Both were quoted as happening after Nero's encounter with Spock; the writers were kind enough to provide an hour-by-hour timeline...

    That's Spock arriving with the red matter.

    That's the putative Klingon battle. And this dialogue takes place while Nero is slaughtering the cadet fleet.

    Also, since both battles were off screen, we can't tell what weapons were used.

    And? It doesn't significantly differ from the wreckage created when red matter destroys Nero's own vessel.

    (It would also involve lower doses of red matter, meaning fewer and shorter-lasting black holes around... The one(s) from the arrivals of the ships from the 24th century was minuscule and a brief candle, and the one left over when Vulcan fell was invisibly small, too. Just use a couple of drops rather than one, and even fifty ships are no tribble at all.)

    This would be a merciful assumption, as the movie elsewhere makes it clear the Narada is not powerful enough to defeat even a single starship with its missile weapons. The mining rig is nearly destroyed by the Kelvin despite a protracted bombardment, and can offer no resistance to the Enterprise the second time around.

    Also, it is superbly consistent that Nero send false messages, as his Vulcan one is evident. Why would this simple miner change his modus operandi? He is obsessed with kidnapping people for information, and using that information as a weapon. A message from a "Klingon prison planet" would be another piece that falls neatly in place.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's clearly not the intent of the film. The idea is that many starships were destroyed by its missile weapons. It's just that not everyone gets the idea to ram them like George Kirk and Spock did. You cited the reduction to 32% of shields yourself; the corollary to that was another hit would take them out. It's not too hard to imagine that, in the event things had not played out the way they did.

    When it's being consumed by a red matter black hole? How is that relevant to the question of its capabilities under normal circumstances?

    Except it serves no purpose from his POV, only alerting others to the fact that there's a big ship going around wreaking havoc. So why be coy when it comes to Vulcan? It is thus highly inconsistent. Sending out a message about Rura Penthe - even going so far as to specify an attack by a Romulan vessel! - would seem to run counter to his purposes, if those include deception regarding Vulcan. This is borne out by Kirk piecing things together while in big-hands mode and thus getting Pike to at least come out of warp with shields up. And again, the original idea in the script was that the battle at Rura Penthe was what happened when Nero and his crew escaped. Does it become a fake message just because the relevant scenes were cut? More to the point, does the Narada become a weaker ship?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  6. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    But it is the content of the film. Ideas don't count, or else Genesis was invented by Ruth Wallace and Spock was a red man from Mars.

    No, when it is engaged in a desperate battle with a midget spacecraft a few seconds before the red matter detonation. Clearly, the mining rig is incapable of coping with most opponents in a "fair fight", but excels in getting the drop on them and defeating them before there's risk of retribution...

    He has to create that impression if his ship isn't capable of creating havoc. He can't get rid of all of Starfleet by fighting it with a ship that runs out of ammo after twenty shots (as seen in the final battle). But he can lie to Starfleet about a really big threat somewhere far away, so that he only needs to tackle a few ships crewed by the Fleet's worst and dimmest.

    Not just because of that, but also because Nero should be behaving exactly like that, considering the resources he possesses.

    Nero's subterfuge ought to work like a dream in general terms. What confuses the issue is Chekov's brilliant, completely out-of-the-left-field mention of a thunderstorm at the Neutral Zone in connection with his public announcement about the mission to Vulcan. Why should those two be connected? Supposedly because the Neutral Zone is relatively close to Vulcan, and because the thunderstorm happened at roughly the same time as the reported trouble at Vulcan. There's no obvious reason why the thunderstorm would cause seismic trouble at Vulcan - but by mentioning this, Chekov makes it possible for Kirk to realize Starfleet is barking the wrong tree.

    Not that it does any real good, of course. But if all the cadet ships dropped out of warp with shields up, the Narada would have been in trouble - it would take three times nine hits to kill them all, and that's more than the mining rig can fire at one go ("Fire EVERYTHING!"). That is, unless the carnage was achieved by dropping some red matter on their path - a move that doesn't work with surprise arrivals such as the delayed Enterprise.

    If all the Starfleet forces that left Earth for Laurentius were part of the relief force, Nero would be in more than just "trouble"... Killing about fifty ships, be they Starfleet or Klingon, might still be possible with red matter although definitely not with the missiles, but it would expose Nero's precious drill to unacceptable danger (unless he delayed deploying it, but then he wouldn't have the nice jamming effect).

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No. "Nero destroys starships using red matter" is not the content of the film.

    But you said it could offer no resistance to the Enterprise. Now it sounds like you're talking about the Jellyfish, which only gets close enough to ram Nero due to the Enterprise shooting down the missiles targeting it. We were told outright what would happen if several missiles hit the Enterprise.

    Most opponents don't try to suicidally crash into it ( and as we've seen, even that doesn't destroy it, unless the kamikaze ship is equipped with red matter ). Besides, what counts as a "fair fight"?

    A threat in Klingon space, that they don't exactly have a mandate to go traipsing around in? That they wouldn't be expected to do anything about? How does that in any way affect the Federation response at Vulcan, other than in needlessly running the risk that someone figures out the Vulcan situation is a trap?

    It doesn't look like it. That appears to be a bunch of ships shot up by missiles, not a bunch of ships sucked into a red matter black hole. When Vulcan was destroyed, or when the Narada was destroyed, they didn't leave "carnage" behind.

    Enterprise is really no more of a surprise arrival than the other ships, unless you think Nero can somehow precisely calculate Starfleet response time.

    In the script, as opposed to the final version of the film, the timeline is different. The message about the Rura Penthe battle comes first, then the "lightning storm" of Spock's emergence. This shows that from the POV of the script the Narada was intended to be strong enough to destroy a Klingon armada without the red matter, and IMO it seems dubious to assume that the ship was rendered incapable of doing so just because the Rura Penthe scenes were deleted.
     
  8. anotherdemon

    anotherdemon Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Narada is in an entirely different weight range than Vengeance.

    One torpedo from Narada took Enterprise's shields down to 32% whilst also punching through the hull and causing internal damage. Sulu states that they can't take another hit like that, leading us to believe that the ship will be at least severely damaged/combat ineffective from a second torpedo (interesting to note that Enterprise narrowly missed one torpedo whilst catching the first one). Shields gone and the rest of the energy expended into the hull from the hit.

    Not to mention the utter massacre of the fleet that arrived moments before Enterprise. One could say that their shields were down and Narada launched a couple of torpedoes at each as soon as they entered range (which they were within as soon as they exited warp). That's the worst case scenario for the fleet. It'd be likely that some of the ships raised shields and returned fire, as we never saw Narada fire its torpedoes at various targets at once, and the torpedoes were slow enough to alert crews to raise shields.

    Vengeance fired several shots at an already crippled (to some extent) Enterprise, knocking it out of warp and making it combat ineffective (I think it fired some more at Enterprise before Carol spoke, but I forget). Then later on, Vengeance let loose on Enterprise for quite some time with phasers and drones (with various weapons). Enterprise was still capable of regaining impulse though, and it was mostly intact. Compare that to the fleet at Vulcan that were blown apart.

    Whilst Narada isn't as spectacular as something like Scimitar (or whatever), but that's comparing a maximum warship against a mining vessel from the same period.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  9. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    The only thing wrong with the Enterprise at all during her escape from the Vengeance was her warp drive was not 100% operational due to one coolant feed being sabotaged.

    Her shields, hull, weapons, vital systems were all functioning at space dock fresh state. Vengeance's phasers reacted as though the shields weren't even there at all, not just blowing up but fully vapourising entire sections of the Enterprise's hull, opening up the saucer, taking tens of meters of hull right off the starboard nacelle like it was paper, and opened a 20 meter high hole right through to the enginnering section.

    Following up she punched at least one hole right down through the thickest part of the saucer section and ripped huge gaping holes decks deep into other areas, and exposing half the warp coils in the engines.

    The Narada's missiles didn't even leave visible marks from direct strikes on her.
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Narada's missile hit on the Enterprise's neck was visible for the rest of the movie, particularly in the warp core ejection scene. From dialogue in the movie, a second hit would have been the end - and the only thing that prevented it was Nero recognizing the Enterprise as Spock's ship.
     
  11. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    One minor black mark on the exterior. Not a gaping wound the likes of what Vengeance could dole out without any effort.

    And I really don't get "ohnoes teh second missel and werh dead" bit. For the entire rest of the movie they act as if the first missle hit did literally nothing to the Enterprise, everything works, all systems are online, the only person dead is the never seen doctor needed to make McCoy be promoted, basically they titled over a little, now everythings ok.

    It's not like the shields did anything to save any other ship before, no indication that anything was actually protecting the Enterprise in either movie other than her own hull.

    Just really did not buy that line.
     
  12. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    There were radiation leaks in the lower levels occupying most of the engineering staff and limited the ship to warp 4, half of sickbay was destroyed, something terrible happened on deck six... yeah, the external damage doesn't quite mesh up with all that, but it's a pretty extensive damage report. And after what happened to the Federation and Klingon fleets, I think it's fair to say another hit really would have blasted the Enterprise into space dust.
     
  13. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    It looks like the missile managed to borrow under the hull and explode, causing a lot more damage on the inside, which doesn't help when we're never shown any of it and just meant to believe that because they all wobbled a little they're all going to die.

    But there was something far more terrifying about how Vengeance can just, well essentially make entire parts of a ship bigger than the Sovereign class disappear, with anyone present in those sections with it.
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    It's just about the only possible content of it, as Nero is shown incapable of destroying multiple starships by any other means.

    In the "battle" with the Jellyfish, the Narada demonstrates it cannot threaten modern starships with its missiles at all. Sulu shoots down all of them with ease! Nero's only weapon is surprise, and utter devotion to crazy revenge. Wait, that's two weapons...

    V'Ger toasted Klingon ships next door to Earth. That got a reaction. Why shouldn't this mysterious supership get the same treatment?

    Starfleet can't risk not sending everything it's got to stop the new menace. If it killed fifty Klingon ships, the only hope of stopping it starts at sending two hundred ships.

    When the Narada was hit with the full might of the entire supply of red matter, she was twisted and shattered, with "carnage" in evidence, but with habitable spaces within still remaining. No different from what happened to those starships over Vulcan.

    When Vulcan went, we were too far away to see what was left.

    Why would he have any difficulty doing that? Starfleet is rushing towards Vulcan to help, obviously constantly sending messages to Nero that tell of their ETA...

    The fleet arrives all at once, quite possibly plunging into a red matter minefield. There's no time to reset that minefield for the late arrival. But there's the shock and awe effect: Pike doesn't seem to think he could shoot down the incoming missiles, even though he has studied the Kelvin incident and learned that George Kirk did that just fine.

    This is the logical consequence of the change - but not only that. It is also the logical consequence of the demonstrated weakness of the non-military mining rig in all onscreen combat. Together, these create consistency. Appealing to rejected story ideas creates inconsistency.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Narada was shooting cluster missiles at the Enterprise from a distance, giving them room to evade. One out of at least five missiles hit. The Vengeance was at point-blank range behind the Enterprise firing everything it had.

    ID's attack certainly looked a lot more visceral and brutal.
     
  16. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    He has a point. Nero breaks the crew out of Rura Penthe, steals back the Narada, fucks up a large fleet of Klingon ships then high-warps it out to the rendevouz point where Spock will appear...
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Classically, though, when main power is reduced, the entire performance of the ship suffers.

    The curious thing, just as you say, is that we never saw what shields are supposed to accomplish in this version of the 2250s-60s. In STXI, after arrival at Vulcan, raised shields do not prevent hull damage from a minor collision; the rest of shield action there is against Nero's reputedly exceptionally penetrating weapons.

    Perhaps what we see is normal ship-to-ship combat for the era?

    In such a case, one would expect ships to be defended with other things in addition to shields. Close-in active defenses, perhaps? In STXI, Robau and George Kirk tried to use such against Nero's missiles, almost but not quite successfully - and Sulu then demonstrated how easily a modern starship can shoot down missiles that are not coming towards her. Perhaps that was the key - Pike knew he couldn't defend against weapons coming directly at him, with no wingman to divert Nero's fire, and Kirk in ST:ID had no prayer of shooting down the whatevers that Marcus was firing, but could have defended a third party from these very same weapons?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No. We see that multiple starships were destroyed by other means.

    I think you mean: if it fires all its missiles at a Jellyfish and then some other ship that wasn't even targeted shoots them down, a Jellyfish can avoid being destroyed. But that hardly describes the general case of a battle with modern starships. The Enterprise wasn't being targeted in that scene, and we don't know how long it takes the ship to make new missiles.

    It certainly gets a reaction from me. :alienblush: Why were Klingon ships next door to Earth?

    Because the fleet doesn't have a mandate for an unprovoked invasion of Klingon space?

    That sounds like an argument for sending a lot of ships to Vulcan, a Federation world, not Klingon space. Which brings us back to Nero being coy about what's happening at Vulcan for no apparent reason, and inconsistency.

    Completely different. All that got sucked into the black hole and went away, unlike at Vulcan where the wreckage ( which looked conspicuously like the remains of ships blown to pieces by missiles ) just floated around for the Enterprise to run into. Also, a big deal is made of using some of the red matter at Vulcan because they hadn't done that yet.

    We saw that it was sucked into the black hole. There wasn't really supposed to be anything left.

    So the other ships were constantly sending messages to Nero, but the Enterprise was not also constantly sending messages to Nero?

    No, that is not a logical consequence of the change. The Narada's capabilities do not necessarily change just because someone made a decision to cut most of the Rura Penthe material.

    Only the Rura Penthe scenes were dropped. The idea of the Narada destroying modern starships with missiles was not rejected.
     
  19. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This of course assumes it would be only one Dreadnought-Class engaging the Narada.

    Wasn't the Vengeance supposed to be the first ship in a new fleet?
     
  20. anotherdemon

    anotherdemon Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I doubt Vengeance is that much more powerful than Enterprise for its context compared to Narada (i.e., Vengeance is far closer to Enterprise than it is Narada). Twice as big or so will equate to more room for a larger reactor/more reactors (twice as powerful in the least), which will mean more power to propulsion, weapons and warp; in addition to greater stores and magazines. Enterprise was a new vessel too, a new heavy cruiser. Vengeance can be seen as a new dreadnought analogue, with more than likely cutting-edge weaponry and propulsion -- cutting-edge for present day Starfleet, not from where Narada came from.

    Say, instead of 2 torpedoes from Narada, it'll take 4 or more to hull Vengeance; Narada can put out that easily enough. Whereas Narada is going to soak up whatever Vengeance can throw at her. This being as Enterprise soaked it up for several moments without catastrophic damage (if it were away from stellar bodies, there'd be no worry for unplanned reentry).