DOLLHOUSE 2x12-Hollow Men Grading, Discussion, SPOILERS

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Captain Craig, Jan 15, 2010.

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How do you grade HOLLOW MEN?

Poll closed Aug 3, 2010.
  1. EXCELLENT

    14 vote(s)
    42.4%
  2. ABOVE AVERAGE

    13 vote(s)
    39.4%
  3. AVERAGE

    4 vote(s)
    12.1%
  4. BELOW AVERAGE

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  5. POOR

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    That means it wasn't predictable. The opposite of what you meant, I'm guessing.

    Anyhoo, yes, I was pretty sure she wasn't gonna make it thru the episode one way or the other. I was surprised she did it herself, though.

    I'm gonna miss this show! One of the few genuine sci fi shows on TV.
     
  2. FredH

    FredH Captain Captain

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    Jul 23, 2004
    Wait a minute. Echo's spinal fluid, presumably reproduced in greater quantities, was going to be used to inoculate the world's population against remote wiping. Why is this a bad thing?
     
  3. Too Much Fun

    Too Much Fun Commodore Commodore

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    I think it's not the idea of inoculating people that's bad...it's the exploiting her body like that (without her consent) and the fact that it makes the evil person doing the exploiting more powerful because it gives him control over who is inoculated and who isn't that makes it bad.
     
  4. StarshipDefiant

    StarshipDefiant Captain Captain

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    Jul 11, 2009
    Percisly, he wasn't going about this with noble intentions, he was going to let the world be destroyed first and let a select few be inoculated, while the rest of the world continued to kill each other.

    With that revelation though, I am curious why November, Sierra and Victor were able to show signs of awareness and remembrance.
     
  5. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    A bit disappointing episode. As a normal episode it would have been an entertaining hour, but as the wrap-up of the "present day" Dollhouse story it left me with a bad taste. Boyd's motivations turned out to make no sense. So first he actively pursues the wiping technology and then, once he has succeeded in developing it, he uses the "it's out there now, we better use it before others will" excuse? That's just lame. And turning Echo into an anti-Rossum rebel was the best way of triggering her fancy schmancy spinal fluid mojo? Really?

    Why did Boyd free Paul and Mellie from prison? Keeping `his family' around didn't make too much sense to begin with (he kept them at gun point all the time; why not keep them in prison, at least until he was done extracting spinal fluid from Echo?), but keeping `the relative he could do without' running around the building until he screwed up the cooling system and only then triggering sleeper!Mellie was not the best of ideas. Speaking of the cooling system... security?

    Mellie's death was expected. It was a simple game of spot-the-Whedon-hints. Happiness with Paul? Carrying a gun for safety? Uh-uh. Bye bye Mellie.

    Perhaps my expectations were raised too high by the previous episodes. I hoped they had something more cerebral up their sleeves then just "evil corporation wants to take over the world and gets blown up". The final scene gives me some hope that the series still will take a turn for the better in its final episode. I just hope that it won't turn out to be everyone shooting their way out of the thoughtpocalypse.


    But it couldn't be reproduced. Wasn't that the whole idea of why they needed Echo? I think they were only planning to use it for the select few. Not that that makes any sense either. What kind of life can you have when only a handful of people are sane and the rest is fighting their way through a post-thoughtpocalyptic world? Why would that be something worth striving for?

    Edit: O wait, they didn't want the world fighting, they wanted them as slaves, right? Okay, that makes a little sense then.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
  6. David cgc

    David cgc Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think Boyd's story was that, after he developed the theory, he decided to develop the technology before anyone else could, with the intention of finding countermeasures to it as well. So he was effectively having an internal arms race. Of course, it also meant that he was creating the exact sort of corrupting infrastructure he'd wanted to head off in order to learn how to head it off. And it probably didn't help that the only thing he found out was one random girl's freaky bone marrow that couldn't be mass-produced. Between having to rationalize all the lousy things he was doing to for the pro-wipe half of the race (Pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way), and having to deal with the fact that despite all of that, he couldn't even stop it, and would have to settle for saving a handful of people, it probably unhinged him greatly. I'd expect he was relatively sane back in University, just somewhat paranoid.
     
  7. Captain Craig

    Captain Craig Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Chalk that up to posting at midnight. :techman:
     
  8. StarshipDefiant

    StarshipDefiant Captain Captain

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    Jul 11, 2009
    No biggie, I had it figured out to, mostly just before it happened but I did have it figured out. I think I am starting to get Joss a little to much, because right before the reveal...I figured out Boyd as well. And Bennett's death.

    *sigh*

    random, awkward question semi related to this show, what does it generally mean when someone says "A few years ago" is there a general meaning?
     
  9. Trent Roman

    Trent Roman Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My impression of Boyd isn't that he's the type of villain with the carefully laid-out, account-for-all-contingencies plan; rather, that he's the type of person who has great confidence in his ability to improvise and adapt situations to meet his eventual ends, very good at reading and manipulating people. So how was all this supposed to yield the desired result? Only in broad strokes, I'd say; if something went in a direction he didn't want--and for all we know, it did--he would just push the new paradigm back towards his end-game. He fostered Echo's rebelliousness because it emerged in tandem with her ability to break free of her programming, which was what he was testing for; take measures to stop for former, you would easily stop the latter. Although I was surprised by one thing (apart from his odd desire for family), which was that Alpha didn't come into it. Since we've still got one episode, I'll spoiler the speculations just in case...

    I really thought Boyd was going to be shown to be responsible for Alpha. Boyd, after all, didn't enter the Dollhouse himself until some time after Echo had become a doll despite his promise to look over her--not, indeed, until after the incident with Alpha. I thought he would have surreptitiously messed with Alpha's programming to watch over Echo, the protector Boyd had promised; a directive that manifests as obsession in his doll state, and the interference eventually leads to the composite event that produces the madman we know. After that failure, Boyd decides that Echo will only be safe if he, himself, it watching over her, rather than a programmed agent.

    Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
     
  10. StarshipDefiant

    StarshipDefiant Captain Captain

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    IN response to your spoiler...

    Possibly, I wouldn't be surprised if this was something shown in like...season three or something (had there been a season three). This is from the impression I get that the actives becoming aware and "special" are because of Boyd's tinkering. Then again, maybe Alpha is just nuts and was able to do this on his own...
     
  11. Snaploud

    Snaploud Admiral Admiral

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    If you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a second:

    Boyd does potentially have the opportunity to create one world order via the quick development and use of such technology (though, the longevity of such a world order is open to debate). If, however, he waits until people independently create such technology, it's likely that you end up with a war such as seen in Epilogue 1 (with rival countries each attacking each other in an effort to gain an edge). Such a result would likely mean the complete and total destruction of the human race (or at least civilization). Boyd's actions--while on the surface immoral--have the potential to save human civilization at least in some form.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    I agree, but there are different ethical limitations applied to world conquerors.
     
  13. propita

    propita Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No surprise Mellie died (though I thought it sad)--how many times has it been said that "everyone must sacrifice"?
     
  14. StarshipDefiant

    StarshipDefiant Captain Captain

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    While sad due to the events and the series ending, I am somewhat pleased with the wrap up of the series to date (technically, this was the finale, with "Epitaph Two: Return" being the coda), and am looking forward to what the final episode will hold (albeit sad it is the final one). Should be a good one, if the promos mean anything...
     
  15. Kaijima

    Kaijima Captain Captain

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    Unfortunately, I get the impression that this episode was hit hardest by the re-write to end the series. Getting Closer, last week, felt like a full story and was paced correctly. Hollow Men is jumbled. Also, on a petty level, I gotta say the ending was a rip-off - if they loaded Boyd up with explosives, we should have seen his death on-screen and the building go up. Not a horrible comp of Echo running down a hall with cheap flames behind her. Then the outside the building with not even smoke in the sky.

    As for Boyd's motivations, well, unless he gets more development in the finale thanks to a personality backup activating in another body, we're kinda stuck with the rushed editing of Hollow Men. It's a shame.

    For my money, I can kinda see what they're getting at, with Boyd. I can kinda swallow it. Reading between the lines of his jumbled explanation, what Boyd was actually saying, was that the technology was going to destroy mankind, and his goal wasn't to like, take over /directly/ but to become the Kindly Big Brother to the world. Rossum's 20 Houses might be like staging bases, that would be converted into strike team centers (as if they can't function that way already) where actives are sent out to fight a secret war against the countries that are trying to achieve and weaponize mindstate technology.

    In a twisted way, I think it is implied that Boyd had an idealistic if twisted vision of Rossum truly being the good guys; a superhero organization with teams around the world who would fight to keep everyone safe from genuinely evil people and terrorists. And, people like Alpha being in the world make a great case for Rossum. That's just ONE guy with imprint technology. And look at the shit he can call down with a snap of his fingers.

    However, along the way, Rossum became a thug themselves, willing to murder and willing to use crazy people to achieve their ends. Though, if there would have been more time for development, I think we might have seen that while Boyd was off chasing his theories about Caroline, Rossum was perverted by the various copies of Clyde running around - Clyde's distributed mindstate version seems to be a twisted, power hungry bastard. I can't help but get the feeling Boyd was a victim of his own ambition and his own organization, to a degree.

    And Boyd did loose it a little at the very end; his babbling about "family" seemed a hint that underneath his controlled exterior, he had gone even crazier than you'd think.
     
  16. ialfan

    ialfan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Feb 11, 2006
    Something about this episode didn't grab me or leave me as satisfied as "Getting Closer" and the six episodes before that but I enjoyed it and don't think that they could've wrapped things up much better even if they had a year to write the script for this episode.

    The lack of outside damage to the building at the end bothered me as well as the somewhat lacking Rossum security personal. I think it's funny that Boyd didn't like Paul despite seeming to be his biggest ally during this season and the finale of last season.

    I voted Above Average due to my above concerns plus my wondering why no one thinks one of the other Dollhouse's won't step up to take Boyd and Clyde's place. It makes the other Dollhouse's seem useless to not be involved in any of this in some way.

    Here's hoping Epitaph Two is as satisfying a finale as "Not Fade Away" was for Angel. I plan to rewatch the series after it airs.
     
  17. Kaijima

    Kaijima Captain Captain

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    I wonder what the betting pool is like on the idea that Epitaph 2 is going to have some sort of mindfuck involved and nothing we've seen so far adds up like we think it does. I realize that E2 is a coda, but still.

    It would be dark even for Joss, but...
    What if everything seen after The Attic is still taking place in the Rossumatrix and Adele did NOT send Echo to the Attic as part of a Xantos Gambit? The edit revealing what Adele actually told Echo before boxing her seemed suspicious to me; revising memories.

    It could be that the Epitaph world is, indeed, wholly virtual and always has been. This would allow Dominic to return for the finale. It also means that we cannot trust any reveals made after The Attic. Boyd may not be the head of Rossum. It could be Clyde 2.0 and only him as the crazy mofo at the top. While this is a long shot, it would make the scene in Caroline's memory where she meets Clyde then Boyd walks out of the shadows more interesting - as if Boyd, at that moment, was suddenly generated from nothing as a plot twist in Echo's virtual delusion.

    Meanwhile, in reality, the actual Boyd could be fighting with Adele and Rossum, and Alpha could play into the endgame in the real world. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Alpha returned and rescued Echo from the Attic?
     
  18. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I said out, dammit!
    I kinda don't want to find out we've been watching The Matrix.
     
  19. StarshipDefiant

    StarshipDefiant Captain Captain

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    Yeah, I agree except for one or two cases, I've never been to fond of those type of endings. It does partially make sense though.
     
  20. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Feb 9, 2009
    What would be interesting is if Epitaph 2 ends with Caroline's complete and total failure to salvage the situation after revealing that it's all her fault to begin with.

    Her plan was essentially Blow up Rossum, ?????, Profit. There was no thought behind it nor any consideration of the long-term consequences of her actions. Really, Caroline reminds me of the stupid animal rights activists who always release the plague-monkey at the beginning of any outbreak movie.
     

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