Does the Federation still exist in the 31+th century?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Hando, Sep 3, 2012.

  1. NrobbieC

    NrobbieC Commander Red Shirt

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    Both sides have enough theories to make both outcomes of the argument plausible and since it's 99% likely to never come up in canon, neither side is technically right or wrong. Canon is what you make of it.
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Given that they possess time travel and time communications, how does "having enough time" enter into it?

    Pick a different part of the galaxy a few thousand light years away and centuries in the past (about when they started last time) and begin again.

    Archer can't provide the people in that section of the galaxy with the solution, because it hasn't been found yet, and won't for centuries.

    :)
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Coming back to this, it's not clear what year Daniels is speaking of, but the Federation would at that time be including the Klingons. This would place it sometime after Nemesis.

    150 in Picard's time, there no figure at all for Kirk's time, for all we know the Federation membership during TOS could have reached several hundred members and then gradually fell to the 150 member figure.

    Kind of what I took from Picard's statement, over 150 species. Or species "home worlds."

    It difficult to reconcile Picard's figure (and the novel-verse's 155) with Daniels "dozens." True, thirteen dozens is the quoted number, but it seems a ackward way of expressing it. Daniels is apparently saying that the Federation in the beyond Nemesis future is considerably smaller than in Picard's time.

    Problem is ... that isn't what we saw. Amanda wasn't a Vulcan-woman, she was a Earth-woman, this is how her son referred to her. Amanda never became a "Vulcan," even though she (apparently) lived on Vulcan since before Spock's birth and was married to a Vulcan.

    Deanna Troi's Human father was never referred to as a Betazed, even through he lived on the planet, and he was married to a Betazed.

    So was Amanda represented in the Federation Council by the representative of her Human species, or the representative of world of her birth, or the representative of world she happen to be living on?

    :)
     
  4. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Sphere Builders don't have time travel capability. They can perceive alternate timelines, but not actually *travel* in time.
     
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    They can. The Xindi test weapon which attacked Earth had compoments from 420 years in the future, as per quantum dating in "The Expanse". They were also able to send Xindi back to 2003 in "Carpenter Street"

    Perhaps the Sphere Builders we saw were from the future, the losers of the battle, who went back to alter history, and while in the past kept an eye on the shifting possible futures?
     
  6. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    There is no reason whatsoever to think that they are referring to their legal citizenship rather than culture.

    Well, let me put it this way:

    I was born and raised in Ohio, and attended college in Ohio. I very much consider myself an Ohioan. I currently live in Maryland near the border and work in Washington, D.C. I still think of myself as an Ohioan, and find that Marylanders, Washingtonians, and Virginians are all kind of weird in their own unique ways. I doubt I'll ever fully acclimate to the East Coast, and I still refer to myself -- and am referred to by others -- as an Ohioan. This does not mean that I am not legally a citizen of the State of Maryland, or that I am not legally represented by the United States Senators and a Representative from the State of Maryland. I don't get to vote for a United States Senator from the State of Ohio this year, and I'm not represented in the Congress by a United States Senator for White People.

    Amanda may be referred to as an Earth woman. She may well think of herself as person of Earth, first and foremost. She may well never fully acclimate to Vulcan culture and may never really think of herself as a Vulcan. None of that precludes her from obtaining Vulcan citizenship and being represented on the Federation Council by the Federation Councillor from the Confederacy of Vulcan (established in the novel DTI: Forgotten History to be a Vulcan female named T'Nuri during TOS, who served as Chair of the Federation Council's science sub-council), and none of that indicates she gets to vote for the Federation Councillor from United Earth or that she is represented by a Federation Councillor for Human Federates.
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But if you went, not to another American state, instead to work in another country and stayed a American citizen, you would be able to vote in Ohio state elections and in federal elections as well.

    I'm on planet Washington (but born on planet West Germany), but I can't vote for a likely candidate for the next presidential term from my home planet. So I have to vote for (one) the candidate from planet Hawaii who moved to planet Illinois, or (two) the candidate from planet Michigan who moved to planet Massachusetts.

    Both of these men are of species American, as I am, so I can vote for one of them

    Even though I was born on planet West Germany, I don't vote for species German candidates. Legally I can't, because I'm species American.

    As my parents (both from planet Washington) moved about the Federation during their military careers, they voted in planet Washington's many elections by absentee ballot. They did not vote as residents of whatever planet they simply found themselves on, even through they often lived there for years.

    Even after both my parents exiting the military and we were living on planet Brazil for a year, they sent ballots to planet Washington..

    Amanda is from planet Earth, and is species Human, she can vote "absentee" for species Human issues and candidates. Even if she were born on Vulcan she could vote Human. She could (if she wished) run for species Human political offices. For as long as she lives on Vulcan she would be a resident foreign species, not a "Vulcan."

    It is possible that the Vulcans would let long term resident foreign species vote in local and regional elections (their choice), but as a "Earth-woman" she could vote in major Earth issues and affairs. Thing that effect her species. Just as Vulcans residing on Earth would make their voices know back home on major Vulcan issues.

    What I'm suggesting is just like what we have in America today. Over 6 million Americans civilians live abroad, plus about another 0.3 million military. some will be outside for years, or perminately. They're all American citizens, they can vote in elections. Percentage wise, that would be like 140 million Humans living "off-world."

    Look at how many people live inside America, without being citizens. Approximately 30 million, they don't vote in elections.

    None of that requires her to be legally a Vulcan person. As long as Amanda is selecting a representative, it makes no difference if that person lives on the same planet as she. The representative does need to represent Amanda's views and beliefs.

    :)
     

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