Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    it's a question of timing.

    Wesley would have been a man with big balls if he stood up and said he did bad before Picard figured it out. Waiting after the trap had been spring and his balls were nailed is hardly the act of bravery, more so than consolation because there wasn't a credible lie from that point which they could tell to extract themselves from that quagmire.

    UM.

    Protecting 4 dirtbag, lying, murderers is most certainly the smaller good YWF, compared tot he rise and fall of empires, even protecting the entire crew of Voyager at the expense of the rise and fall of empires is a small selfish petty good.
     
  2. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    Ronald D Moore originially wanted Wesley to stand by his friends (when the script was slightly different) but Piller wouldn't allow it. Piller did get TNG in shape but his outlooks was so limited sometimes.
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    How is it in the greater good to allow 4 people who are clearly willing to lie (and who knows what else...these things are a slippery slope) to save their own skins into Starfleet? It's not as though they were somehow preserving peace by spitting on their friend's memory.

    Sounds like the makings of a fine crew for Equinox.
     
  4. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    Just because his friends have some sense of self-preservation that means they're bad people? Maybe it would be different if the friend was still alive and going to prison and they were lying to save their own skins. But he wasn't, he was dead!
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Well, I don't know...the crew of Equinox acted out of a sense of self-preservation. Were they bad people?

    It should be noted that their friend was dead -because of them-. Frankly if I was the dead friend, I likely would have preferred to have been imprisoned.
     
  6. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Just watched another two episodes.

    Lifesigns: This episode developed the Doctor's love life, showed us a different side of the Vidians, and it set up Tom Paris' leaving Voyager in the next episode. All in all this was a fine episode, although it did drag at times.
    5/10

    Investigations: The arc with the traitor Jonas finally comes to and end, and in a really big and epic way. I love all the buildup to the end of this episode; Neelix starting his TV show, Tom Paris leaving and being captured by the Kazon, Neelix hunting for the traitor, Neelix discovering that Tom Paris' departure was all a setup for the spy, and so forth. All in all, a very fun and exciting episode and a perfect conclusion to the Jonas arc (pun intended :)).
    8/10: This is the first episode to get an 8 from me, making it the second best episode of Voyager so far, behind Alliances which I gave a 9.
     
  7. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    True that!
    I would really worry about someone that can't see their friends are criminals and supports their life choices. Talk about growing up Gotti?:eek:
     
  8. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Location:
    Michigan
    Lifesigns:
    This is where the doctor falls in love. I don't think he could get out of it-although he did try. Doing a final bonding ritual in a 57 Chevy?

    Investigations:
    A different ep. that offers character examinations as well as fast paced adventure. Neelix really shows his stuff and ends the show by earning for himself a golden plaque award.
     
  9. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    I've been rewatching the show myself. I'm in the middle of Season 5. All I have to say is, "Ugh, Naomi Wildman."
     
  10. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    I thought it was one of the finest romantic episodes Trek has ever done. Denara Pel had so much depth and seeing the doctor develop feelings was different from anything we'd seen before. I don't see how they could have done it any better, 5/10 seems so harsh for an episode was pretty much the best it could be.

    You sure do seem to be a fan of the Kazons/arcs...don't get too attached :lol:
     
  11. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    I thought it was one of the finest romantic episodes Trek has ever done. There was so much depth to the story. On one hand we had a tragic figure in Denara resigned to an early death and social pariah status and on the other, a new kind of life discovering what it means to love.
    I don't see how they could have done it any better, 5/10 seems so harsh for an episode was pretty much the best it could be.

    You sure do seem to be a fan of the Kazons/arcs...don't get too attached :lol:

    RE: "The First Duty" debate. I'd hate to be friends with any of you lot! Willing to throw your friends under the bus just to soothe your conscience, absolutely frightening.
     
  12. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    I'm not sure how it could have been better. I guess it just didn't hold a lot of appeal to me, that's all. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was a fine episode, just not one of the best episodes ever.


    Somehow that doesn't make me very optimistic for the future of Voyager. This entire Kazon arc has been terrific. I really don't want it to end. Please no spoilers though about when it will end.
     
  13. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    Well let's just say the writers/producers/executives considered the Kazon arc to be a failure and they took Janeway's opinion seen in "Alliances" on tha matter"
     
  14. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    What did fans think about the Kazon arc at the time? Was it unpopular? If so, is it still unpopular? If that's the case, then I am in the minority on this one.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I thought the Seska elements were kind of fun in and of themselves but as time went on they started to feel a bit hackneyed.

    As for the Kazon...without Seska they seem perilously close to second-rate Klingons. I hoped the fact that there were various clans would somehow prove relevant, but ultimately little came of it.

    Also, given the fact that Voyager is theoretically trying to high-tail it out of the DQ, that they encountered the Kazon for so long seemed increasingly improbable.
     
  16. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    From what I've gathered from forums, the arc was very unpopular** (oops, originally wrote popular but meant unpopular lol). Michael Piller defended the Kazon and the Kazon arc (and it was really his baby) but the other writers didn't like it and he said in one interview that even many of his friends said they didn't like it.

    Looking back, I think the Kazon episodes are actually some of the strongest of those first couple of seasons and I appreciated it as Voyager's only real attempt at a proper arc but the fact that Voyager still maintained its high warp ability but kept bumping into the same ones just irks me. They should have given some reason for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2011
  17. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    I like the Kazon arc and the episodes that have to do with them. I just didn't like the design of the Kazon species. They look like they have afros with fish sticking out of them.
     
  18. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    Yes.
    Many fans felt two seasons in Kazon space was too long.
    It brought too many questions about how such a race could claim territory over so much space. Due to it you'll notice in future episodes Voyager doesn't spend as much time fleshing out many of the other aliens species you meet......except if they're nomadic(Hirogen) or conquers(Borg), who would be found roaming outside their space.

    My personal issues with the Kazon was, they weren't violent enough. For a species that was so supposedly disgruntled, in two seasons they never killed one Voyager crewmen. Not one. For a group that wanted Voyager so badly, why not just start killing off the crew at each encounter? Fans compare the Kazon to Klingons but Klingons would have murdered off the crew. The Kazon didn't work because they failed to prove they were an actual threat.
     
  19. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    I think the Kazon arc would have been better received if
    a- The Kazon hadn't looked so silly and weren't portrayed as being so useless.
    b- Either shortening the span of the episodes to make it more realistic than Voyager would keep encountering them or -
    b2 - Have the Voyager be unable to travel at high warp for some reason, perhaps damaged warp engines they're unable to fix without help from a similarly advanced society. Of course that would require the replicators not to be magic which is really one of the main improvements the show should have made in general - complicated parts should not be able to be made on the ship.
     
  20. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    It's pretty damning that other shows can get away with similar arcs without anyone batting an eyelash:

    1) In NuBSG no one cares that the Cylons kept showing up even though Galactica's method of FTL put even more distance between them and the Cylons than VOY's Warp Drive did for them and the Kazon.

    2) In Farscape no one cares the Peacekeepers kept showing up.

    But in VOY, if ANY aliens species showed up more than once of twice there was Hell to pay.
     

Share This Page