Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The doctor in a later episode consulting with Mosset in secret only to be found out, would be like when a dirty philandering husband is given a second chance only to be caught shtooping his new secretary too.

    "You need me! Admit it!"

    "I admit it, I need you."

    For all his lofty ideals and good intentions, the doctor would be seen as weak unable to cope with holes in his database.
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Was a reason provided as for why the Doc couldn't directly integrate Moset's knowledge into his own database?
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was part of his database,

    He is the database.

    The Doctor extracted the data from himself to wank up the process with a bit of pageantry, so that he could listen to himself speak and someone new could call him a genius and when he was calling Crell a genius, he was really calling himself a genius.

    Masturbation, nothing more, nothing less.
     
  4. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Well, well, well...I must say that the negative responses to this episode are really surprising to me.
    Keep in mind that I also disagree with the Doctor's decision to delete Moset because he and his research could have been used save more lives down the road.
    @ YWF: Those are some interesting plot holes, but to be honest they really didn't bother me. Yes, the writers probably should have edited the script/story a few more times in order to get rid of them, but as it stands the plot holes don't take me out of the story.
     
  5. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There are quite a few people who like this episode. And some number dislike the episode only because they disagree that Janeway shouldn't have forced Torres to get well, or that the data shouldn't have been erased.

    The notion that a hologram is a materialization of a real person is the starting premise of the story. As noted it contradicts the failure of the effort to produce another EMH, but the real problem is that it is impossible to recreate a dead person because the information is lost. No superadvanced technology is going to do that. (The late but unlamented series Caprica screwed up on this point as well.) This is by the way why the Doctor only works as a comic figure and why all the seventh season episodes trying to develop his character seriously all fail.

    On a moral level, I dislike the implication that Nazi medical experiments produced any knowledge whatsoever. They were purely exercises in sadism, falsely justified as science.
     
  6. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I was going to point this out, but you did it for me. And the difference between this episode and Caprica is that on Caprica, Zoe's avatar program was a complete download of her mind (much like Dollhouse... except for Tamara, who shouldn't have been sentient either. She was kind of thrown by the wayside, though, in the final episodes). Crell Mosset is a creation from a few published works and an extrapolation of his personality from public speeches he gave. Unless he's a complete idiot, any public speeches he gave would not have him acting like an ass.

    If you want to see an example of an episode that created a specialized hologram that was done WELL, I point to Leah Brahms from TNG: Galaxy's Child. The real Leah Brahms ended up being nothing like her hologram, because Geordi programmed the hologram with incomplete information. So why is Crell Mosset so much like his real-life counterpart?

    The reason I don't like this episode is because the premise is flawed from the start. They took an episode that COULD have been great with the concept of the parasite alien, and instead made it completely dumb by force-feeding a moral quandary down our throats.

    That, and because the alien prop was so utterly ridiculous, the rest of the episode suffered.
     
  7. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think you can make a hologram that well represents a dead person if you have enough data and biographical information on hand - in fact its the plot of one of my episode ideas where an ensign secretly replicates the holo-emitter and creates a hologram of his dead girlfriend who is unaware she's a hologram as is everybody else. But the fact that the Moset hologram started to exhibit traits of the real Moset out of nowhere pissed me off and seemed unrealistic and lazy.
     
  8. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    Sure, I agree. But are we honestly expected to believe that Voyager has enough data, without accessing any extranet information, to make an accurate representation of a Cardassian National, when the Federation has limited information sharing with the Cardassian government in the first place? O'Brien couldn't even get the Cardassians to tell him how to kill voles.
     
  9. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Thirty Days: A great Tom Paris episode with a sad ending. I was very sympathetic to Tom's cause, and I think it's a real shame that he didn't succeed. I think Janeway was way too harsh on him. Demoting him and sentencing him to thirty days of solitary confinement just seems evil to me. Especially considering how many times Janeway has "broken the rules." What a hypocrite...
    8/10

    Counterpoint: A hilarious and witty episode with a terrific guest star. The script was brilliantly written, and Janeway and Kashyk had so much chemistry. The twists at the end of the episode were great.
    Absolutely no complaints!
    9/10
     
  10. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes but Tom broke HER rules. Janeway just breaks far away starfleet rules (and gives her crew opportunities to object and have it noted). You can't have complete insubordination. I suspect he would have been more harshly treated back in the Alpha quadrant but it would be bad for crew morale to do so.

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihl3ACv0FBM&list=FLFYs1aCmUieoKsPv1txPBBw&index=35&feature=plpp_video[/yt]

    One of many people's top 5 episodes.

    FABULOUS froot video:

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDI0HfVTuDA&feature=related[/yt]
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Undeniably great episodes.

    Although, Janeway should have put her self in the brig for thirty days, and demoted herself to Lt Commander for rescuing Tom.
     
  12. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    JANEWAY: Computer, change music selection. Mahler's Symphony Number One, Second Movement. Maybe this will help you relax.

    :bolian: :rommie: :bolian:
     
  13. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thirty Days was a definitely a very good episode if not exactly great. I loved the idea of the planet, but I felt Janeway was definitely acting like a bit of a dick.
    Counterpoint definitely was a "great" episode for me although I'm not sure how you found it hilarious, I don't think it was even meant to be funny.... I thought almost everything about it was perfect except for Mulgrew's acting which was overly-posed and vacant at times. I loved the ending scene though where Janeway has won but has also really lost.
    There are some really great episodes up ahead to look forward to - oh and one atrociously awful one that I don't think ANYONE likes.
     
  14. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I say screw Janeway and her ridiculous rules. I applaud Tom for showing courage and trying to do what he believed was right. He handled the situation extremely well. I would have acted no differently.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm amazed how long the Ensign Paris thing lasted.

    Though he never ever again mentioned how much he loved sailing ever again.

    Workforce would have been an excellent time to reintroduce Tom's passion for the sea.
     
  16. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    The planet in 30 days was phenomenal. It's been a long time on Trek since we've seen something so unique.
     
  17. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Watched Course Oblivion again recently and sure someone mentions windsailing (surfing?) in there vis-a-vis the honeymoon? Shocking the useless detritus the mind memorises (even if incorrectly :borg:)

    Oh, and my ten cents: it does get significantly better as a series. But we all know that.
     
  18. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm glad he never sailed again, otherwise we would have had horrible pirate themed holodeck stories. I don't want to hear Tommy say "Ahoy", not ever.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Tom "Yo Hoho, and a bottle of Rum!"

    Harry "What's Rum?"

    Tom "Well, now I really have to show you."
     
  20. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I forgot to mention that in my mini-review, but I agree that the water planet really was stunning. Kudos to the visual effects artists!
     

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