Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed.
    I think Voyager is a good show to introduce someone to Trek that's never seen Trek before. I also find Voy. a more modernized TOS, than DS9.
     
  2. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Persistence of Vision", that was the one where it all turned out to be a sadistic telepath doing everything, right?

    I LOVED the end confrontation between him and Janeway:

    "Why, why did you do this to us?"

    "...Because I can."

    No justifications, no unintentional side-effects, just a flat-out sadistic bastard who wanted to inflict pain.
     
  3. WarsTrek1993

    WarsTrek1993 Captain Captain

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    I have to agree that some of VOY is filler episodes, and some of the episodes I have watched are downright ridiculous. But there are quite a few good episodes in the series.
     
  4. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not really, Kes was the hottest!

    Regarding Persistence of Vision and Parturition. I liked the character interactions but overall both plots were pretty dull.
     
  5. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    When Han Solo swoops in to help Luke Skywalker at the end of Star Wars, it's a bravo moment, too. Supporting characters get those sometimes. But Luke's still the protagonist, not Han.

    They attempt to dramatize it when Harry finds out that his friend, Danny Byrd, is lost on the Voyager instead of him in this reality. But its not very successful -- Kim never seriously considers staying, even though he's been handed exactly what he wants. I've criticized this twice before, though.

    To the degree that the would-be protagonist is absent from nearly three-quarters of the story? Yeah it is.

    All the heroics aren't due to Tom. Harry isn't nearly as passive as you're suggesting.

    Right. Except for getting home to Voyager, the only goal that matters.
     
  6. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She was one years old with fangs.

    Lindsey Ballard was hotter.
     
  7. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The show isn't real life you know ;-)
    And I found Kes really pretty, its hardly surprising Tom or Neelix would!
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Does Lindsay still count Birthdays? or did she have to start formt he beginning again with Death Days?

    So she was either half a year old dead, or forever 23?

    Was she immortal.

    Undead?

    Living dead.

    Or was she just a different sort of alive that was again ageing towards the same sort of death all over again?

    You know, Kim could have mentioned Deadlock while hitting on Lindsay.

    "At least you had a funeral. Captain Janeway didn't even think about turning the ship around to pick up my corpse fushed out into space."
     
  9. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think you guys are letting a few too many spoilers out!
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    How is it a spoiler to say that Lindsay fell through a hole in time only to eventually become the Mum from the Suite of Zack and Cody... harry's subsequent rescue mission during season 2 of Suite lIfe on Deck was a complete ballsup!

    Harry can't swim.
     
  11. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Luke got the climactic moment to the plot, the destruction of the death star. Kim didn't get even a bravo moment in what was supposedly a Kim story. much less the climactic moment, which is Paris martyrdom.

    You keep assuming the story is about Kim deciding to go back to Voyager, then concluding the "attempt" to dramatize the issue you assume has failed. It may be a shocking thought, but if the episode didn't spend much time or emphasis on the question, maybe that was because it's not what the episode is really about.

    And how is this less admissible as a dramatic technique than keeping the antagonist off stage for nearly three-quarters of the story? There was no good reason for Kim to go to that meeting when he knew perfectly well he had no idea how to proceed. Simply refusing to go for illness was much more sensible and more flattering to your presumed protagonist. Instead, we see Harry being helpless at coping without Tom. That got a lot more dramatization than the decision to go back to Voyager.

    No, Kim isn't passive. But he isn't heroic. He doesn't even get away from the security personnel without Tom.

    Why on Earth do you think that it matters whether Harry Kim gets back to Voyager? He was a minor character, probably there as a placeholder for a token Asian. There are practically no Kim episodes, even if you count this one. And one of them, Nightingale, is a backhanded slap at network executives by the producers, and possibly also meant deliberately to humiliate Wang by diminishing the character.
     
  12. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Helpless without Tom? Harry might be completely out of his element in that meeting, but Tom wouldn't be one bit of help. Cosimo would, though. Like Tom, he's another character that exists to aid the protagonist.

    Luke doesn't get off the Death Star without Ben Kenobi. Since when are heroes excluded from getting help?

    That Kim (and Wang) were underused has no relevance to this conversation. Even minor characters get their own episodes sometimes -- and this one belongs to Harry. It also helps that, besides the tag, he's the only character in the main titles to be in the episode (Alternate Tom Paris not being the person we follow week to week).
     
  13. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The intrinsic interest of the episode Non Sequitur was of course long ago exhausted. But this is interesting as an example of how the conclusion determines the arguments, no matter what. Which asks the fascinating question of why is the assumption so necessary?

    Again, why is it acceptable to keep the antagonist off screen for long periods yet it is not acceptable to keep the protagonist off screen? The same reasons for keeping an antagonist off screen apply to the protagonist.

    If the story is about Harry's return to Voyager, what is the purpose of the meeting scene? It makes him look ridiculous, not because he didn't know about a project he didn't work on but because he did and knowingly walked into a meeting that he must fail in. He's already decided to return. If it's to show that he doesn't really have a choice, then all that the episode is about is how he gets back.

    In which case, if the story is about how Harry gets back, why have Cosimo tell it all? Why not have Harry do something clever, like trick Cosimo, or "dark and gritty," like torture Cosimo?

    I guess what I'm really trying to pin down is whether the assumption that is so vitally necessary is that Non Sequitur is a Harry episode, or that Voyager is badly written?
     
  14. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Over the last few days I have watched four more episodes:

    Tatoo: Once again another alien species from the Delta Quadrant has visited Earth. What a coincidence. On a more serious note, I thought this episode was incredibly dull. I didn't like the main plot with the aliens, and the flashbacks to Chakotay's youth were hardly interesting. I hate to say it, but so far this has been the worst episode of Voyager.
    1/10

    Coldfire: We finally encounter the other being that the Caretaker spoke about in the series premiere. I loved seeing Kes develop her telepathic abilities in this episode. The scenes between her and the other alien of her race (can't remember his name) were very interesting, as were her training sessions with Tuvok. All in all, a very solid episode.
    7/10

    Maneuvers: A good sequel to the last couple Kazon episodes. I enjoyed seeing Seska again; I loved the way she flirted and toyed with Chakotay, and I liked the plot twist with her impregnating herself using his DNA, since it's perfectly in her character. Overall, a fine episode.
    6/10

    Resistance: I'm not entirely sure if I really like this episode or if I think it's merely okay. I liked the guest stars for this episode; I felt a lot of pity for the old man who helped Janeway, and I thought the villain for this episode was very menacing. There were some very emotional moments in this episode; learning that the old man's wife and daughter had been killed, hearing Tuvok screaming during his interrogation.
    I think I'll give this one a 6/10
     
  15. Yevetha

    Yevetha Commodore

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    Is The Chute any good?
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I recall thinking it was very good, but it's also the kind of episode I find hard to rewatch due to the subject matter.
     
  17. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Agreed. I think "The Chute" is a great episode. It's just not one I would want to watch again.
     
  18. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Same. I liked the Chute and remembering thinking it was a very strong episode but I have difficulty rewatching it.

    @Admiralscreed. Yes, "Tattoo" is an abomination of an episode. "Cold Fire", "Maneuvers" and "Resistance" are all solid episodes. I always felt "Cold Fire" could have been much stronger though, I know Braga can do better than that.
     
  19. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    We agree! Hip hip hooray!

    I've given plenty of 7's this season, but I'm still waiting for that super special episode that will get a 9 or 10, or at the very least an 8. Hopefully that episode will come soon. :)
     
  20. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Kes is more than just telepathic, she's psychokenetic.
    That's means whatever she sets her mind too, she can control on a molecular level.
    It makes Kes equal to Jean Grey when she was the Phoenix.(did you notice she had the big "O" when she killed all the plants) ;)
    Kes and her race are Ocampian.