Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    But he wasn't our Tom, so who cares.
    I'm pretty sure Brannon did not set out to make a "Tom Paris episode" with Non-Sequitur.
     
  2. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Yes.

    No. Cosimo hands Harry the techno-babble about the "temporal inversion fold of the space-time matrix," but it isn't as easy as Harry tapping his Ruby Slippers together for him to get home. He still has to convince both Libby and Paris to help him, and steal the Yellowstone to get there.

    Checking the last time we debated this, Paris doesn't show up until 21 minutes have elapsed. After that, he's relegated to being off-screen more than half the remaining time (He's in half of act three, the last minute of act four, and in act five until he dies). If he's the protagonist, keeping him off screen for 70% of the running time is simply clumsy writing. The fact that his crucial decision to change his mind and help Harry is relegated to happening off screen should clue us in to his role in the script -- to help Harry out when he's in a jam.
     
  3. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I just started Season 3 in my re-watch, and I have to say, I do not remember "Basics Part 2" being so retarded.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    You're smarter, and more worldy now.

    That's all that's changed.

    Bad luck trying to revisit anything you used to enjoy 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

    ...

    The thing I don't understand about Tom is... "Oh so there's a better version of me out there, who is unfortunately in a fantastically dangerous situation that he might die any moment, but I am going to help you destroy (overwrite) the universe anyway and kill myself in the process rather than try to make a go of the life I have now, because it's some how meta delightful that there's a copy of me who thinks I'm scum just like you think I'm scum, so I'm just going to bend over and accept that if you say I should kill myself for his sake, and that I should take the universe and everyone in it with me, except you."

    That's a seriously *&^%ed up sort of Muppet who needs to be put down.

    Hells, bells, and it's exactly what's happening on Dexter at the moment with the Doomsday Killer.

    Reminds me of Emperor Catagia a little too. How he thought that he would turn into a god off world when he planned to allow the Shadows to destroy Centauri Prime.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  5. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^^^I never quite got past the scene where Tom broke into Harry's bedroom. And not just because we find Harry wears a sleep mask. I would have thought Paris/Kim was another canonical slash coupling like J/7, except it was two guys and interracial to boot. But, no, the alternate Tom was there to show us the inner, true Tom, who is incredibly noble and self-sacrificing. I have no idea how a society without money is supposed to be infested with ne'er-do-wells like alternate Tom or Julian Bashir's father, but there you are.

    Paris' decision to save Harry is offscreen because seeing him come to the rescue is supposed to be a bravo moment. Harry's presumably dramatic decision to return to the ship may be technically on screen but it's not dramatized. There's no high point or exciting scene like Tom the Hero swooping in to save his friend.

    Keeping the protagonist off screen isn't clumsy writing. But character based drama where the characters are acting out instead of interacting with the environment. There really isn't any reason why alternate Tom can't straighten up his act if he's really inspired to hope. Nor is there any reason why his situation is so dire as to merit suicide. (There's no reason to think any universes are destroyed in this scenario.) This weak motivation for Tom may be why the character didn't just dominate the story, even though all the heroics are due to him. Harry succeeds in nothing, other than, presumably, pleasing Libby during the fadeout.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Kim thought it was unfair for Daniel Byrd to be trapped on Voyager in his place.

    Part of his reasoning in destroying the Universe was to save Daniel Byrd from being trapped on Voyager.

    The only way to not have "a" universe leftover in tact with Daniel Byrd not trapped in the DQ was to destroy this reality completely.

    FRom DS9 In the Cards.

    There's a labour glut.

    Everyone wants to work, but there's not enough jobs, which might be why you get some one like Julian's dad "Dick" who had so many professions because he trains up for one job, but he's ass at it and left sitting on his thumbs because no bugger will contract him.

    (I imagine that education is "free", and entrance is purely merit based, even if they make you cage match like Wesley did in Coming of Age to justify the resources that will be expended your education.)

    Getting a job in this society is a privilege.

    However, I also assume that that Starfleet itself is a sort of hands on polytechnic institute, if you want to wonder about the enlisted ranks floating about. I mean sure O'Brien is a lifer, but what about the people who just sign up for a two to 5 year contract to learn a trade? However in reverse, others could get preferential slots in "schools" of their choosing if they agree to sign up with the fleet for a small number of years, just like how the army and navy these days pay student tuition in exchange for service.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  7. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    So far you people are not counting up the odds here. According to Cosimo, Harry is suppose to accept his new surroundings and he will then die on Voyager and then carry out this time stream which is some fairy land to what end? To accept he's dead? Cosimo said he had been doing these experiments for awhile and it's a 50 to one shot the victim will just blend-in to the situaltion.
    That's not how it is with Harry though who decides to do something that is very technically difficult and daring and that is to steal a shuttle and go back to entry point.
    No doubt the experiment is-- the time stream will merge with real time and Tom will disappear (he must be expendable) and Harry will marry Libby.
    Why glorify Tom if he is the only original character that must be killed?
     
  8. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    By the way, it is very vague precisely how those ships recreate the entry point, when the entry took place in the Delta Quadrant. Which just points out once again that the Voyager producers thought all that stuff was just so much technobabble. Our Tom, their Tom, universes destroyed or characters switch, it's all blah blah blah, and throwing around all those absurd objections over something that doesn't make any sense is pure fanboyism.

    I personally find that attitude does a lot of damage to practically all TV and movie SF. The moronic notion that there's no difference between SF and fantasy exists to justify slovenly writing in plot and setting. And also limits the real world relevance of SF because real scientific speculation is usually more relevant.

    Anyhow, the point of this story is not that Harry is dutiful and wants to come home. The point of this story is that the old, useless loser Tom is dead because Tom has nobly come to the rescue, at great personal cost. It's a character driven story, not a plot driven story. And it is of course the official creed that everyone likes characterd driven stories as opposed to those crappy plot driven stories.

    Incidentally, keeping the real protagonist offstage was done other times in Voyager. In this context, the most notable was Alter Ego, which begins with Harry having a problem and ends with Harry's solving his problem by learning something. In what is nonetheless a Tuvok episode.
     
  9. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Its still a crap episode no matter what way you try and spin it. "Nightingale" was an example of a good Harry Kim story imo, although I know some people don't like it.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nightingale may be a good episode for the character of Harold Kim, running him through the gauntlet, but that's like saying 12 days in the Bunker was a good Movie for the character of Adolph Hitler.

    (Anthony Hopkins, 1981, if you were wondering.)

    It just highlighted what a dick he was, and how magnificently he could make a bad situation worse, almost as if they were writing a villain who needed a comeuppence.
     
  11. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Remember, fan means fanatic.
    A fanatic will stick with something they like through thick and thin.

    Which means many of those 20 million weren't true fans but rather casual viewers turned on to TNG because it was the "in" fad at the time. Trek lost viewers because they were never interested in Trek before or beyond TNG to begin with. The numbers for Voyager are probably closer to how big the fanbase really is, seeing how those that stuck it out to watch Voyager would be the loyal fans
     
  12. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    It has always been the same for science fiction with a crew who must consider selling to the average public and leave scientific credence to the wayside. The first science fiction films had a true base but what has emerged since 1970 is something to stare at and is hard to believe in. Their must be reasons for more optimism, though since it is adept to pick-up things that are applicable and, given a few well rounded notions, it is easy to advance.
    An interesting idea is a science fiction epic that is based on relevent data and relevent science though mankinds nature would prove it to be immiscible, since the limits of its habitat are only philisophical books by great thinkers.
    The reason I stay with Trek is because most of it is believable science and also with adventure and humour and sex.
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    What? because they don't know who reg Barclay is?

    Ah, but the Doc forgot about him in The Swarm, remember? He's the only one who saw Barclay, so how could he recognise him?
     
  14. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Haha convenient!
     
  15. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    The Doctor not remembering Reg makes perfect sense given that his entire mind is wiped and rebooted. He's bound not to remember everything.

    As for the rest of the crew...those things happened 4 years apart! If I looked up a random name 4 years ago, I very much doubt I'd be able to remember it today.
     
  16. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I just watched Parturition and Persistence of Vision. Here are my thoughts.

    Parturition: Quite a good episode. As I expected we eventually would, we finally saw some conflict between Paris and Neelix over Kes. Seeing them come to respect one another in the end was very satisfying, and I really liked the reptilian "alien of the week." All in all, a very satisfying episode that featured some good develop for both Tom Paris and Neelix, and even Kes to a lesser extent.
    7/10

    Persistence of Vision: Next to Elogium, this is probably the weakest episode of the season so far. The alien of the week for this episode didn't make a lot of sense, and I didn't feel like there was a real focus throughout the episode. By the end I didn't feel like this episode had accomplished anything. It just dragged a lot and felt like complete filler. Not terrible, but definitely a big disappointment.
    3/10
     
  17. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    The unfortunate thing about Voyager is that most episodes are filler. Some of them are quite good filler, but very rarely will you see anything important happen.
     
  18. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I feel just the opposite.
    I enjoyed "Persistance...." better than "Parturition".
    I think it was one of the few times while the character is still around, the series showed that Kes had potential to be so much more.
    "Parturtion" seems petty.
    With all the hot young women on Voyager, it just seemed stupid that Tom would set his sights on Kes and so blatantly in front of Neelix.
     
  19. Paradon

    Paradon Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    I think Voyager is great in it's own right. I think it could have been better. DS9 could have been better, too. I've been a bit of a snob to say voy isn't good. It is good. But I just happen to like DS9 better. It had better character development in my opinion. Voy started to get better right towards the end.
     
  20. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    The problem with "Persistence of Vision" is that it's not good filler. It's dull and nonsensical. A good filler episode would usually get a 5 or 6 from me, and on the rare occasion a 7 or higher. DS9 had a lot of filler episodes in the first few seasons, and even some in the later seasons during the Dominion War. Despite being filler, a lot of these episodes managed to be really entertaining and/or interesting. Some of my favorites included "Whispers" and "Little Green Men."