Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Exactly. It would have made the episode worse if they'd just inexplicably tacked on a few DS9 characters who shouldnt have even been anywhere near the area anyway.
     
  2. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    The episode could have been rewritten so that the DS9 characters were integral to the plot. They had the opportunity to make something really special with this episode and they sort of blew it. The episode is fine as is, but it had the potential to be so much more. Just my opinion...
     
  3. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    With that logic, we might as well re-write every single episode that had the potential to be "so much more." It's not like the writers planned a DS9 crossover and failed. The episode was never supposed to be a DS9 crossover in the first place.

    And honestly, the crew of DS9 was a lot busier with other things (like, ya know, the war). The Defiant would have had no reason to be where the Prometheus was.
     
  4. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    And what's wrong with doing that? Episodes that have the potential to be great SHOULD always be great. It's just that the quality of the writing doesn't always live up to the potential of the story idea, and that's why we get episodes like Message in a Bottle and Conspiracy; episodes that are good, but not as great as they should have been.


    Doesn't change the fact that this could have, and should have, been an epic VOY/DS9 crossover.

    A rewrite would solve this. Find a way to tie the Dominion War and/or the crew of DS9 into the story. If necessary, rewrite the entire story from the ground up. Not that hard to do when you think about it.
     
  5. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Honestly, I'm glad the episode wasn't a crossover with Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Can you imagine the writers doing justice to the concept? Better to do a comic romp, something much more in the arena of Star Trek: Voyager, than to attempt something serious.

    You haven't gotten there yet, but in season five the series will make direct reference to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine in the episode "Extreme Risk" (although there are no character crossovers). The result is an utter failure.
     
  6. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    To be honest, that episode is based on information we learn in the 4th season episode Hunters, which immediately follows Message in a Bottle.

    So, if you're looking for your DS9 crossover, you're going to get it in the very next episode.
     
  7. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    And if the writers of Star Trek: Voyager had any foresight or talent, the character beats in "Extreme Risk" would have either happened much earlier or been alluded to throughout the rest of season four. Alas, neither.
     
  8. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They didn't blow it. The concept they had was a complete one, the script was funny and well written and the actors performed well. Its absurd to say they blew it just because they had an episode that took place back in the Federation that didn't include DS9.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They probably had the foresight and the talent.

    But every time they'd even think about it, Berman would rap their knuckles with a wooden yardstick.

    The punishment for Thoughtcrime does not include death, it is death.
     
  10. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    It is where Michael Taylor and Bryan Fuller cut their teeth as writers; both would go on to better things after the series...
     
  11. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    If you look at the episode for what it is, then yes it is a good episode with an interesting story and lots of humor. I'm not disputing that at all. All I am saying is that this could have been one of the best episodes of the entire series if they had taken the original idea for an Alpha Quadrant story and taken it in a different (and far superior) direction by making it a true DS9 crossover.
     
  12. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. :bolian:
     
  13. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    No, not "exactly."

    You folks are satisfied waaay too easily. Can't you see things for they could have been? What they SHOULD have been? This episode could have been completely epic, but instead they just do another humor episode with the Doctor. A good episode, I will admit, but nowhere near as grand and exciting as it could have been.
     
  14. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Didn't you say when you started these reviews that you'd be open minded to others ideas and opinions even if they didn't agree with yours? It doesn't sound like your keeping true to you're own words right now.

    That being said, no I do NOT agree with your opinion and/or point of view. I agree with other in the fact that the crew of DS9 had more important issues to deal with than one rogue ship.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2012
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Every episode, with a tiny rewrite would have been a DS9 cross over.

    Right down to Tom writing a Quarks Bar Homoprogram for the crew to kick back in.

    Of course, then they go to Vics Bar inside Quarks bar.

    Now, your standard Vic may know that he's a hologram,. but would this Vic know that he is a holohologram?
     
  16. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Alright, alright. You got me there. My apologies if I offended you. I'm just having a difficult time wrapping my head around why you folks think a DS9 crossover would be such a terrible idea. Please enlighten me.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Before I could offer an opinion on a potential DS9 crossover I'd need more details as to how you'd recommend modifying the episode to accommodate such, rather than just saying "they could have done more". What more could they have done?

    That being said, any argument that the DS9 folks were too busy with the war or weren't in the right location is, I think, purely arbitrary. There's no reason the Prometheus couldn't have been somewhere else, and while I love DS9 they certainly seemed to not infrequently have episodes during the war that still had little to do with it.
     
  18. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A crossover does not make something automatically good. Good writing, acting and direction makes something good and "Message in a Bottle" had that in spades. How would the humor or meaning of the episode be improved if Jadzia and Quark had randomly showed up for 5 seconds? "Birthright Part I" had a crossover with DS9 and it wasn't a particularly good episode because the story wasn't that interesting and the writing wasn't that arresting either.

    The writers of this episode obviously came up with an idea where our doctor would interact with a snooty EMH Mk II and co-operate with him to save a Federation ship occupied by Romulans. That was the story concept and actually a very unique and solid one so they made the episode. I don't see an episode being much better if they'd started out with the concept "Let's shoehorn a DS9 crossover in somehow".

    If they'd wanted a DS9 crossover, they would have come up with a suitable storyline.

    On a related note. One of my Voyager story ideas would have Harry Kim in a shuttle sucked into an unstable one-way wormhole back into the Alpha Quadrant. Once there, the task of finding a way to make the wormhole work both ways so a ship can be sent through to fetch Voyager is left in the hands of a science team and Harry is enlisted into the fleet to help in the war against the Dominion at its most hopeless stage. After a month of experiencing unimaginable destruction, death and dread (and maybe some DS9 crossover), he hears word that the team have succeeded in stabilizing the wormhole for two way travel. He steals a shuttle and heads into the wormhole before anyone else and once back in the Delta Quadrant, he destroys the wormhole, erases the shuttle logs and heads out to find Voyager again. The story would have given Harry some depth - he may be seen as a coward but also as someone who didn't want to see his Voyager family very likely destroyed in a war that the Feds seemed to be losing. Frankly, I think such a story would give Harry much needed depth. I'd rather see Harry be a coward than a cardboard cutout!
    Any opinions on this story appreciated!!!!

    Looking at the geography of the Federation/galaxy whatever. The Prometheus is practically right up at the Beta quadrant if not in it. Thats geographically far from DS9.
     
  19. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    We get a combination of this in Non Sequitor and Timeless, although Timeless is season 5 so the OP hasn't seen it yet.

    I just don't agree with the need for a DS9 crossover story. We got the TOS crossover in Flashback, and there are going to be a few TNG crossovers that the OP hasn't gotten to yet (sorry for the spoiler, but its relevant to the conversation). We already got a DS9 crossover in the pilot episode. I just don't see the need for an episode to be set on DS9.
     
  20. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hmm I guess it has minor elements from both episodes. But I think its still a unique enough idea to stand on its own as an episode.