Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Sure, I can't disagree with you here. I think the execution of this particular plot point was a bit lacking -- they definitely could have done more with the Maquis crewmembers -- but even if they had done more, I think the ultimate results would have been the same.
     
  2. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No one is really disappointed that the Feds and Maquis came to an understanding, they just wanted it to last longer than 2 episodes.
     
  3. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    How come nobody counts Suder & Michael Jonas as part of the crew not integrating well? If you count them, crew conflict doesn't end at "Learning Curve". Isn't the issue really put to bed with "Worse Case Scenario"?
     
  4. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Suder was great, but he was only in three episodes. Jonas never made much sense. I mean, he doesn't like the way the Captain is going about doing things, so his solution is to betray everyone and side with the one Cardassian spy in the quadrant?
     
  5. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Another night of new Voyager episodes.

    Scorpion Part 1: This episode's most glaring flaw is that it diminished the threat of the Borg. Seeing Borg ships torn apart makes for good action, but I can't help but feel disappointed that the species who once assimilated Picard and almost destroyed the Federation are now having their ships blown apart like TIE Fighters. Nevertheless, this is still a well written and enjoyable episode. I like the scenes between Chakotay and Janeway, particularly their conflicting views at the very end. I was glad that Chakotay was finally standing up to her and telling it as it is. After all, she did choose him as first officer because she wanted someone who could challenge her in difficult situations such as this.
    All in all, a good episode.
    6/10

    Scorpion Part 2: This episode is quite a bit better than part 1. We see Voyager and the Borg trying to work together, which is something I would never have seen coming when I first saw TBOBW. We also see more conflict between Chakotay and Janeway. I personally think that Chakotay made the right decision since the Borg were obviously untrustworthy.
    I am sure that Seven of Nine will make for a very nice addition to the cast. I enjoyed all of her scenes in this episode.
    8/10
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sex.

    Seska used sex to manipulate and control men.

    That she was Cardassian probably turned him on more.

    That she was an evil Cardassian trying to destroy him probably turned Michael on relentlessly.

    As with Neelix, they both left because no one on the ship was putting out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  7. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why do folks keep thinking the Borg are the supreme species of the Galaxy? They were never meant to be anything more than ONE race that was stronger than the FEDS. They were never meant to be the biggest threat out there, just one.

    The idea of there being at least ONE species out there that could kick Borg ass is EXTREMELY likely.
     
  8. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    They still had a airponics/hydroponics whatever bay after she left. Its mentioned a couple of times later on. But I think adding an arboretum-esque environs for the crew to enjoy would have been a really nice touch.
     
  9. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I watched first Star Trek The New Voyages recently, a high budget fanfilm series, and in the pilot, there's this woman with godlike powers who is saying things to Jim Kirk like "Cardassians" and "Borg" and the "Dominion".

    How do you think Kirk would have fared against the Changeling?

    Has there been such a massive leap forward since 2365, that Janeway could manhandle the Enterprise of that locus, just like those Borg were manhanding Enterprise back then? ...Possibly, maybe?

    Look how O'Brien and Defiant danced rings around Kirks Enterprise.

    There's no question that the Federation is closing the gap, it's merely a question of if the federation can surpass Borg technological Superiority before the Federation is assimilated because they are a less sophisticated society ill equipped to defend themselves.

    Rates of change.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  10. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    It's the transitive property of ass-kicking. Any species that kick the Borg's ass the way the Borg can kick the Federation's ass should be able to kick the Federation's ass twice as hard.

    This doesn't happen.
     
  11. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    @Anwar: I don't think that the Borg are the supreme species of the galaxy, and I agree with you that it is extremely likely that there are stronger species than the Borg at least somewhere in the galaxy. With that said, was it really necessary to make the Borg look this defenseless? To be honest, I can't really answer that question because I have mixed feelings. On one hand, turning the Borg into victims of an even more powerful species leads to the inevitable team up between Voyager and the Borg, which as I said in my short analysis makes for an interesting story because both groups are entirely different from one another. It takes the threat of an even more powerful foe in order to get them to cooperate, and I think that makes for a good story, hence why I gave Part 2 an 8/10.
    So, going back to what I was originally saying, I'm not entirely satisfied nor am I entirely dissatisfied with what this 2-parter did to the Borg. Overall it made for a strong story, but I can't help but feel that my perception of the once mighty and powerful Borg has been altered for the worse.
     
  12. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    Patience, young grasshopper. You have 4 seasons of Voyager left to watch.
     
  13. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I hope you don't mean that my perception of the Borg will worsen even more. :confused:
     
  14. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I imply nothing.
     
  15. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Well, this thread ought to be interesting to read in a bit...

    I actually quite like "Scorpion." I think the series made excellent use of the Borg up to this point, but after a certain point this season should have moved on to another antagonist.
     
  16. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well I don't really see what you're saying here since it only gets worse or maybe that's what you're referring to.

    But, I didn't feel that was happening in "Scorpion" and don't agree with your score. We had the faceless, menacing Borg still intact and just because there was another species introduced that were more powerful didn't really change my perception of them. I mean, in the end, the Borg do adapt and even defeat them so clearly the Borg are still formidable yet.
    Personally I thought Part I was stronger than Part II. The build up to meeting the Borg and Species 8472 was good as well as the Chakotay/Janeway debate. Part II was let down by Jeri Ryan's performance for me, she wasn't really acting like a Borg would in that instance but she more than makes up for that in her next 4 years on the show of course. However that certainly did taint the episode a little bit for me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2012
  17. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ...Because they never fought the Federation in VOY, there WAS no Federation to fight. All there was, was one tiny scout ship and it didn't matter what happened to Voyager because, again, they were just one tiny scout ship.

    TNG and DS9 had the advantage of having the whole Federation to play with, VOY did not.

    Imagine if BOBW was simply about the ENT-D itself being attacked by that Cube and there was no danger to Earth or anyone else, that's not much of a story.

    VOY's premise meant it couldn't do anything big and epic like that. And even when they tried, folks did nothing but complain.

    It's no-win.
     
  18. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I don't have to imagine. That is the plot of TNG Q-Who. And, unless I'm mistaken, that is taken to be one of the best episodes of TNG.

    I realize Voyager was outmatched, but bad writing meant that the Borg episodes were weakened. Q-Who is an example of a well written Borg episode.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Q, Who? worked as an introduction episode, nothing more.

    And the only reason they escaped was because of deus ex machina (Q). In fact the episode needed both Guinan and Q to work.

    VOY tries that, all they get is flack for how the whole episode needed deus ex machina to work and nothing about how good the story was otherwise.
     
  20. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    A pretty damn good introduction episode, I might add. Much better than Scorpion. From their very first appearance the Borg were ruthless and menacing, and that's one of the things that made the Borg so great. They were seemingly impossible to defeat. Every attempt by the ENT-D to gain the upper hand resulted in failure. Never before had they been faced with such a powerful foe.
    What made the Borg seem much weaker in Scorpion was that A) They were defeated so easily by the alien race (Ex: Their cubes were torn apart like TIE Fighters), and B) They had to resort to an alliance with a much weaker faction (Voyager) in order to defeat that enemy. While this all made for a very good story, I still think that it had some negative side effects on my perception of the Borg.

    Keep in mind, I still gave Part 1 a 7 (changed from 6 to 7), and Part 2 an 8, so on the whole I thought it was a very good 2 parter. Don't misinterpret what I am saying.