Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Location:
    the real world
    Double checking I can't find any details on why Favorite Son is bad other than the criticism that the race could not have originally evolved that way. Which doesn't seem very telling since the same applies to the Borg. The Taresians at least don't have magic bandwidth.

    I only know of two DS9 fans who've reviewed the complete Voyager, Jammer and The GodBen (I think I've spaced the latter correctly, if not, sorry.) Both refused to even write a review of the episode. I can only speculate about the reasons.

    The crackpot assertion above that there's "tons" of scientific evidence for genetic determinism (aka scientific racism,) is evidence that the intrinsic issues raised in the episode have something to do with its supposed badness. The claim that a simple statement of fact (about the nonreviews of Favorite Son) is somehow trolling doesn't just prove that poster has stooped to lunatic insults. It proves that the issue is deeply felt, which means that the episode's insult to that position is objectionable.

    Formally, Anwar is perfectly correct that the Maquis would have no serious current objections to Starfleet, given that war against the Cardassians was not at choice to fight over. I think the resistance to admitting simple common sense stems from the duplicity of the Maquis argument. I think Moore really wanted to attack the humanitarian vision of the Federation, that he fundamentally believes that life requires that we do bad things, and that if we emote enough about it, we can move on and enjoy the benefits. I find this both foolish and nasty, but there you are.

    The Maquis are not supposed to be wanting war with Cardassia, they are supposed to reject the fatuous, deluded ideals of StarFleet and the Federation. And Moore is outraged because Voyager didn't do what he wanted to do. True, in honest dramatic terms, what he wanted was stupid, but that is still what he wanted. And why the people who get off on a vision of a "Trek" that shows their kind of people find his grotesque rant so compelling.

    There was an exchange, maybe in this thread, about Wesley's confession, which arises naturally in a Voyager thread. Moore is notorious for thinking that Wesley was wrong for betraying his friends. The record suggests that Moore is the kind of man who doesn't really believe in any kind of morality beyond thieves's honor. This is also nasty enough, and since there's no such thing, shameful folly.
     
  2. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    I'll say it again. It's unrealistic that the Maquis would so easily adapt to the Starfleet way of doing things. And they wouldn't continue to stand behind Janeway after all of her serious blunders. A mutiny would have been realistic.
    If you recall the holo-novel from Worst Case Scenario, Chakotay takes control of Voyager and then gives the starfleet officers the chance to serve under him. Had that actually happened, and if I were onboard Voyager too, I would gladly put my support behind him. He wouldn't waste time on random anomalies. Chakotay would devote all of his time and resources to getting home, and if an opportunity to get home were to arise he would take it without hesitation. It's unfortunate that that version of Chakotay was only part of a holo-novel. Had he been portrayed that way from the start there would have been some serious conflict between himself and Janeway, and that would have made for some very engaging and exciting storylines.
     
  3. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    Considering the Maquis are, by definition, former Federation citizens and that many of them are former Starfleet officers, I really don't think it would be too difficult for them to adapt at all.
     
  4. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    How would you feel if your Starfleet captain was continually squandering time, resources, and your chances to get home? Wouldn't that bother you? Wouldn't you want new leadership?
     
  5. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    It would all depend on the situation. The only reason the Maquis were formed in the first place was as a result of the Cardassian war. They were fighting for the right to keep their homes. They're hardly villains.

    I'm not saying we wouldn't have benefited from seeing more conflict among the crew in that first season, but I honestly feel like it would have worked itself out relatively quickly.
     
  6. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    I believe Chakotay was the only former Starfleet officer, a Lt. Commander. Torres was an academy dropout. None of the others were mentioned on-screen as having ever been in Starfleet. Ayala was the only other Maquis granted a provisional Lieutenant rank, the rest were all either Ensign or Crewman (probably depending on how much knowledge they had to begin with).
     
  7. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    I'm just saying, these are all people that grew up in the Federation and are probably very familiar with Federation and Starfleet principles. They may not like the situation they were in, but I doubt they would have a terribly difficult time getting used to the way things are run.
     
  8. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    OH. MY. GOD. What is wrong with you?
    Jammer wrote a full review of "Favorite Son" so what planet are you even living on?
    Favorite Son is by no means a good Trek episode or a good Voyager episode. Who cares about how realistic it is, its still dull and boring with an uninteresting plot, bad acting and bad production values. It was a cheap, boring, drab episode that didn't excite or intrigue. Not every episode of Voyager is some kind of underrated masterpiece worthy of being put in a time capsule for future generations to enjoy and analyze.
    Stop f**king trolling with your stupid assertions that every Voyager episode is amazing and making up bloody conspiracy theories like a mad person.

    RE: The Maquis situation. Its fairly obvious in all the Maquis episodes in Trek that most Maquis are NOT Starfleet officers and any attempt to argue otherwise would be completely ridiculous
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2012
  9. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Okay then, here is your situation. You are a Maquis onboard Voyager. You've been onboard the ship for 3 years now (since that's as far as I've watched so far). Captain Janeway continually wastes time studying anomalies when she should be trying to get everyone home. Resources like shuttlecraft are being wasted on the most trivial things like visiting a foreign planet. It doesn't seem like you're any closer to getting home than you were 3 years ago. So far you have had 3 chances to get home. You strongly disagreed with Janeway's decisions in Caretaker (destroying the array), Prime Factors (refusing to let you steal the technology), and False Profits (chasing the Ferengi instead of going through the worm hole). At this rate you'll be an old and dying man (or women) by the time you get home. You want to insure that you'll get home as soon as possible, so what do you choose to do?

    And in case it wasn't obvious, this is the exact same situation that the Maquis are faced with at this point in the show.
     
  10. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    I've got a really funny retort to this that I can't use, because you haven't gotten to that point in the show yet.

    For everyone else:
    I would wait until my future self comes back in time to rescue me, thereby saving me the pain and anguish of going through this any longer.
     
  11. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    But you're painting the Maquis as if they're all one big blob who all think the same way. The Maquis is made up of individuals, just like the crew of Voyager. You think all the Starfleet officers were happy with all of Janeway's decisions just because they're in Starfleet? I'm sure there are plenty of people on her crew who were pissed after she destroyed the Caretaker's Array.

    The point is, Chakotay agreed to let Captain Janeway run the show. The Maquis respect Chakotay as a leader, and they respect the decision that he made. Chakotay used to be in Starfleet himself, and he understands and believes in Starfleet's principles. More often than not, Chakotay and Janeway were on the same side of an argument.
     
  12. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    That's a nice response, but I would still like to know what you would do in the situation I gave you.
     
  13. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    I can't answer that, because I probably wouldn't have been pissed off in the first place.
     
  14. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    I sure would have been. This Captain is sending us to our graves, and we need new and better leadership. I would have confronted Janeway about her decisions, and if she didn't agree to make changes from that point on I would have gotten together all of the people that I know and trust and conspired with them to take control of Voyager. It sounds dirty, but Janeway wouldn't be leaving me much of a choice.
     
  15. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    I would have enjoyed the adventure. As a general rule, I don't get upset about things. Sure, I would have done my best to try and find ways home, but I would have remained optimistic and would stick to my principles.

    I'd basically be Harry Kim. :lol:
     
  16. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    And by the end of the adventure you would be dead, assuming Janeway didn't find a way to get everyone home before the 70 years was up. Personally, I would rather put all my effort into getting home sooner.
     
  17. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    And that's exactly what Janeway did. She never planned for a 70-year trip. The only difference is that there are certain lines she refuses to cross.
     
  18. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    Or more like Crewman Harren, from season 6 episode Good Shepard?
     
  19. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    Sure...?

    I don't remember that one too well.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I think anyone who claims the Maquis were just defending their homes is forgetting that they also openly attacked both Cardassian and Federation ships and weren't above poisoning planets to get their way.

    While you've got the apparently mild-mannered quasi-Starfleet Chakotay, you've also got the more middle-of-the-road Torres and the batshit-crazy Suder. The Maquis were pretty equal opportunity employers, but in the end I think Voyager generally painted them as being far too eager to put on the uniform.

    Seriously, what would happen to those individuals who were willing to join and fight with the Maquis because they were defending their homes, but honestly -weren't- cut out to be Starfleet? Don't tell me Tuvok's little boot camp (which merited all of one episode apparently) had a 100% success rate.

    I don't necessarily expect to see people openly challenging Janeway's decisions or such, but some acknowledgement that these people do potentially come from radically different backgrounds and don't all want to become part of a quasi-military hierarchy would have been nice.