Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    A real shame that they ousted Michael Piller. I loved the Kazon arc, and as a whole I thought season 2 was great.
     
  2. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think if they'd kept Michael Piller, you'd be enjoying the show a lot more now for sure. Piller wasn't very happy about it, he felt that the show was really going to hit its stride in season 3. Personally I felt they made too many mistakes with the Kazon arc and wouldn't have been happy to see it continue into season 3. But that didn't mean they needed to abandon arc based story-telling altogether!
     
  3. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The two DS9 fans who've done complete reviews of Voyager refused to even review this episode. Saying it's just bad tells us how you feel but not what you think.

    As for the implausibility of the concept, the notion of genetic knowledge is an old one. It doesn't work in earthly life but is still a sufficiently plausible speculation to serve here. As to the intrinsic implausibility of this race, they are nothing more than the biological equivalents of the Borg Collective, where instead of electronically assimilating alien knowledge and technology, they biologically assimilate it from aliens and then transmit it directly to their offspring. True in both cases the societies could not have evolved that way. They both must have become that way.

    (The refusal to even review the episode is really pathetic. Plus, it misses out on some interesting stuff, even if you really do find reason to dislike the episode. For example, the basic concept is developed from the late, great Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy. The thematic repudiation of the family romance fantasy, where the child was really born from other parents and inherits a special destiny was also decidedly at variance with DS9, which strongly specialized in this.)

    As for the Jem'Hadar, they however do not have genetic knowledge, they have genetically determined behavior patterns, aka instincts. And everything we know about instinct says that they cannot be simultaneously programmed to adore the Founders who do not even have a specific form to serve as a trigger for the instinctive behavior:wtf: and display adaptive, aka learned behavior. Unfortunately, the Jem'Hadar are in fact a truly moronic idea, and worse, one that was used over and over. And worst of all, one that was taken quite seriously. Personally, if I want stupid ideas I prefer them with a lighter touch, like in SG1.

    As for "a ton of genetic research that is finding markers that seem to pre-determine certain behavioural patterns that go on in life..." this is a falsehood. Either the so-called markers do not in fact indicate predetermination or the supposed behavioral patterns are in fact too general to constitute a genuine pattern. Or both! The supposed research is all flawed, and is nothing more than yet another attempt at a scientific racism.
     
  4. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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  5. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    Well, I did go into a few reasons why I think its bad, but if you really wanted me to do an in-depth review I certainly would.

    I'm not sure which DS9 reviewers who refused to review you're referring to, but I'd agree that a refusal to review an episode is cowardice in discussing it.
     
  6. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    STJ is now suggesting conspiracy theories about DS9 reviewers...

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And that whole thing just proves Moore is a dummy.
     
  8. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Interesting interview. A good summary of everything that is wrong with Voyager.
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    How so? It really just comes off as a disgruntled employee blathering on about how the VOY production team were dumb for not changing the entire show every episode.
     
  10. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Let's not get into this debate. I think you just need to accept Anwar that the majority of people disagree with you and that exaggeration is not the way to try and get your point across (i.e. change the entire show every episode)
     
  11. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    The show didn't stay true to its premise
    -The ship was magically in tip top shape each week, even after destructive battles that heavily damaged the ship.
    -The Maquis fell nearly perfectly into line with Starfleet, despite being the total opposite of Starfleet.

    The show wasted it's terrific cast. Not much else to say about that.

    And more...

    Keep in mind that I've got another 4 seasons to go after this, so it is possible that things will take a 180 turn around, although after reading his article and just from prior knowledge I am doubtful that that will happen.
     
  12. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's what Moore tried to do with NuBSG, and most of the time he ended up hitting the reset button as well!

    It wasn't even a complete premise to begin with, and how were they "not true" to it? It wouldn't have made any sense for the ship to be some scarred near-wreck or for them to be low on food a place as densely inhabited as the Trekverse.

    Moore only got Galactica to work by having there be no aliens in their Universe, and even then he only got 2 seasons out of it before the show fell apart.

    So their engineering staff isn't incompetent, that's a problem?

    No, they weren't. What real differences DID the Maquis have from the Feds, once the DMZ and Cardassians were no longer present?
     
  13. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I think its a great commentary not just on Voyager, but the Star Trek franchise as a whole. The interview was during Voyager's run, and he makes some predictions about the future of Trek that very nearly come completely true:

    Well, what happened? ST: Nemesis was a flop, Enterprise wasn't very highly regarded and got canned after 4 seasons, they sat on the Franchise for 5 years and then released ST'09. He even predicted that the next series (Enterprise) would be about the past, pre-Kirk.
     
  14. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Braga was already working on ENT during VOY S6, so Moore probably knew from the Studio when he said that.

    Moore's own attempts at making his own franchise/continuing series speak for themselves, really. He can't write endings, and he's got enough in him creatively for 1-2 seasons but after that it's always off the rails.
     
  15. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I just don't find it plausible that the ship would look brand new after all the battles it's fought and all it's gone through. It should be bruised and scarred (both the interior and the exterior) and supplies should be running out. The crew should be down in the dumps and depressed. After all, all of their opportunities to get home have been foiled by their very own captain. A fight for control of the ship would be realistic, especially considering that the Maquis aren't as disciplined and principled as the Starfleet officers. I could easily see Maquis murdering Starfleet officers in their sleep. This would also be a great opportunity to examine the Starfleet officers; how do they respond to the Maquis threat? Do they negotiate and make peace with the Maquis like they have been trained to do, or do they throw their principles aside and fight for their life? Considering they need all of the crew members they can get, this is a difficult question to answer. How do you make peace with your enemy?
    Related to that, I think it's unrealistic for Chakotay to get along so well with Janeway and the other Starfleet officers. He's a Maquis, and they don't operate in under the same protocol as Starfleet. Unfortunately, the show hasn't done a very good job showing this so far. Season 1 and 2 had some good Starfleet/Maquis episode, but they seem to have completely given up on those stories now. A shame.
     
  16. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In Farscape, Moya goes through nasty stuff and it never changes or shows battle damage. Only once in the entire show do they have to take it to a specialist for repair work.

    Deep-Space missions are supposed to last for years (Kirk's was 5 years) away from home and out of touch with Mission Control. And both Kirk and Picard have been in their same situations and yet both managed to return home okay. No reason to get that depressed when at least 5 years away from home is what they signed on for, and they know that this isn't some impossible situation.

    And Janeway didn't mess up their ways home, that's all BS VOY Haters spout around.

    Agreed, but the Fleeters outnumber them 3-1 if not more.

    This, not so much. Why would the Maquis do this? They weren't hardcore arch-enemies of the Feds, their enemies were the Cardassians. They didn't even have really serious differences with the Feds in terms of how they operated, since their own leader was an Ex-Fleeter who brought most of his experience to them.

    But the Maquis and Feds weren't really enemies in the first place, and the local Maquis Leader (Chakotay) WAS an Ex-Fleeter.

    He wasn't even a traitor like Eddington, he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis, and he didn't betray secrets or operations in the process. Or go out of his way to antagonize the Feds.

    If anything, Chakotay would've been one of the first ones to just say "Look people, we're stuck out here through no fault of anyone. These guys are willing to let bygones be bygones, and frankly they're the only thing we have in the DQ close to a friendly face. We can either work together to try and survive, or we can just ask them to drop us off on the next commerce world, and I'd rather we all stayed here on an advanced Starship."

    Yes, this should have all been addressed in the show itself but the bottom line is that the Maquis were never going to be truly adversarial to the Feds and whatever tensions between them would realistically be resolved in 1-2 seasons. Any more than that is just crazy.
     
  17. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    That's simply not true. One case immediately comes to mind. Late in season two, the ship is seriously burned to kill some nasty critters on board. Several episodes into season three, we revisit that part of the ship -- and it's still burned.

    What's this based on again? As I indicated elsewhere in the forum, that was never the intention of the original Star Trek. That was the intention of Star Trek: The Next Generation, but the premise was abandoned early in the first season, after barely being mentioned.

    Janeway was sent to hunt down and capture the Maquis. They were certainly enemies. That some of the Maquis were once part of Starfleet (do we ever get a clear idea of the numbers that were?) doesn't negate that.

    Secondly, thy weren't trapped in the Delta Quadrant by accident. Janeway made a conscious decision to trap them there based upon her own set of principles. The Maquis might have chosen Voyager because it was their best option -- but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be angry about the situation, and furious at Janeway. Honestly, it's surprising that more members of Janeway's crew weren't mad at her. Even if they were on a deep space mission, it certainly wouldn't have been intended to last for 70 years.
     
  18. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That "Burned Moya" thing was what I was talking about. Only once in the entire show do they need to take it to a Ship Doctor for repairs, and even if there's still some damaged parts of the ship it never affects Moya in any real capacity. It's not like for the rest of the show she can't Starburst or is in chronic pain or anything.

    Even if they were sent out to catch them, does that mean that once you took away the DMZ and the Cardassians, they still had any real reason to keep fighting? Chakotay's group never encountered Voyager before so there was nothing personal between them, and to continue to fight in the DQ would just be silly. Yes, there should've been SOME friction but given how the Maquis really didn't have true differences in ideology and organization from Starfleet realistically it wasn't going to be much, nor was it going to last.

    In Farscape, the crew of Moya were all violent criminals/true enemies beforehand. And also, they really didn't NEED one another since Moya ran itself and the ship didn't belong to any of them so there was no unity between any of them either. Not so with Voyager.

    No, she didn't. The Array was never a viable option, the silly thing was that some characters (Torres) acted like it WAS.

    There was never a choice. Unfortunately some of the WRITERS forgot and in episodes like "Night" they acted like it was a choice.
     
  19. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    The original Star Trek was indeed a 5 year mission. This is canon from the opening theme, which we should all know by heart:

    The USS Voyager, Intrepid-Class is intended as a strategic, mission-specific vessel. It was never intended to be on a 5 year mission like the Enterprise, so it was noteworthy for completing a 7 year mission without any contact with Starfleet or refueling at Starbases. There is one episode, I can't recall which, where B'Elanna convinces Janeway to land on a planet for extensive overhaul.

    Whether or not this is realistic, I don't really think so. The things that bug me about the show was the 17+ shuttlecraft they lose, the 100's of torpedoes they launch, the fact that nearly NOBODY dies during the course of the show, and numerous other deus ex machina type situations she finagled her way out of. But, I digress. I think I mentioned most of this several pages back anyway.
     
  20. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    So why the line, "Moya never changes or shows battle damage" then?

    Secondly, while they may have not gone to specialists to repair the ship all the time (honestly, I don't remember), they certainly did have to get supplies to maintain and repair the ship on a pretty consistent basis.

    Third, you haven't mentioned the Moya pregnancy yet. While certainly not something that could have been done with Voyager, the ship on Farscape certainly didn't go without changes, as you suggested.

    Besides the ideological difference that the Maquis wanted to make war against the Cardassians, while the Federation wanted to avoid this and was willing to arrest anyone who tried to do so? They may have been transported far from the DMZ and their political struggle, but it doesn't change the fact that the Maquis suddenly found themselves having to work for their would-be jailers, stranded far from home.

    Huh? I've seen "Caretaker" a few times (though, not recently), but never recall the ending being so easy.