Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    She seems to be the hot topic of a lot of Voyager conversations around here. I haven't gotten quite that far in the show yet, but I'll let you all know what I think of her character when I do.
     
  2. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "Warlord" showed Kes's strength and determination, that beneath her waifish, innocent appearance, she was still a strong fighter determined to defeat Tieran and expel him from her mind/body. This can be seen in the scenes where Tieran and Kes are squaring off in her head.
    I mean I didn't love the episode, but I think its fairly obviously an episode that does tell us something about Kes.
     
  3. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Favorite Son: I liked the aliens-of-the-week in this episode. They were both creepy and seductive, and they also had a clever scheme. Unfortunately Wang gave another bad performance, and the science behind this episode was pretty appalling. It was also pretty cheesy at times.
    I wish that more time had been devoted to the aliens who attacked Voyager. Just what is their relationship to the aliens on the planet, and why are they so hostile towards them?
    Another thing to note is just how much the aliens of this episode remind me of the Edo from TNG's Justice. They look like gorgeous goddesses, but underneath it all they are quite ruthless. I thought that was quite interesting.
    All in all this is an okay episode, but it could have been better.
    4/10

    Before and After: With the exception of The Year of Hell scenes (and Kes' long hair) I found this to be an incredibly dull and slow moving episode. Still, when this episode was good it was REALLY good.
    4/10
     
  4. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed.

    What's worse is they never explain how the Doctor studying different philosophers translates into: " I must commit murder to protect Kes and stop her from leaving Voyager." There is nothing that ties the EMH's story to Kes',yet by the end were supposed believe they're intertwined?
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wow, "Before and After" gets the same score as "Favorite Son". What fresh alternate timeline is this, that I find myself thrust into?
     
  6. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I'd give Before and After a point or two more than Favorite Son, if this were my thread. The nice thing about it was showing one possible future, and the plot device of her memories traveling back in time was well done, almost like Memento. Favorite Son seemed like a vampire flick, but Harry shoulda got his rocks off, first!
     
  7. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm also very shocked that "Before and After" gets a 4/10. Its a really well liked episode of Voyager and in fact I think it won the best episode of season 3 and the second best episode of Voyager in the elimination games a while back (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=145967) and has a place on several people's top 10 lists.
    Jammer gave it 3.5/4 (http://www.jammersreviews.com/st-voy/s3/before-after.php) and sfdebris gave it 8/10 (http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/voy-before-after-review-5380763), and personally its one of my favorite episodes of all time.

    I thought the mystery of her going back in time, seeing her relationship with Tom and how he's dealing with an aged spouse that can't remember him (similar to Alzheimer's sufferers) was very touching. Seeing an alternate future of Voyager was interesting too, and all of the action scenes were exciting and directed differently from what we'd seen before. I haven't had this much trouble accepting a score since theGodBen gave "Barge of the Dead" only a 2.5/5 but this score is even worse!

    I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid because its in the minority, I'm just a bit surprised that your taste is so different.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2012
  8. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    After posting my score for that episode I looked around the net at other reviews, and I must say that I am really surprised so many people like this one. I'm almost as surprised as I was a couple years ago when I discovered TWOK was the fan favorite Trek, since personally I don't care for that film either. I'd watch TMP, TVH, or TUC over that crappy film any day.
    Could people explain to me why they consider this to be one of the best episodes ever? It struck me as just a slightly below average episode, with not much to offer other than The Year of Hell which I thought was fascinating.
     
  9. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm sure if you read some of those reviews, you'll see why people like it so much!

    As Jammer said

    "Before and After" is yet another Trek breed of the Time Manipulation Paradigm, but I'm not about to hold that against the show. This is a weird, effective story that uses its plot machinations as a springboard for some thoroughly enjoyable mini-stories. The episode is paced at a brisk speed and filled with sub-stories that contain humor and fascination, venturing into both hope and despair.
    ...
    The relentless jumping through time makes the story interesting and fast-paced--as does the way Kes and the crew come to understand the nature of the mystery--but what really makes "Before and After" compelling are the "what if" implications. The story paints us one possible future of the starship Voyager, and it's in these details that the show gets truly inventive and entertaining.


    I can't really put it better myself
    http://www.jammersreviews.com/st-voy/s3/before-after.php
     
  10. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Fair enough. Maybe it would be more deserving of a 5/10.
     
  11. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well its all up to what you think.
    Personally I think its obvious that "Before and After" is a better written, more adventurous, more original, more meaningful and better acted episode than "Favorite Son" so its quite difficult to swallow that it has the same score.
    I guess you found all the bits with Kes and her family/the crew uncovering the mystery behind her jumping backwards in time fairly boring. If Kes doesn't hold your attention then its understandable that you wouldn't enjoy the episode. Everyone has their own preferences, I find Kes to be a very watchable character and thought Lien turned in her best acting performance in this episode being particularly good at acting as the confused older version of herself. The only bit where the episode lags is during the present day when there's a tad too much technobabble.
    But overall seeing an alternate future of Voyager where the crew have been through a lot of changes and Harry has married Paris's daughter (!) and Janeway and B'Ellana were dead was really interesting. Not to mention the action of the "Year of Hell" segments and the urgency of the later segments where Kes is running out of time to save herself.

    But if you believe that it really only deserves a score of 4 then give it a 4. You might change your mind if you rewatch it like I've done with several episodes I've previously disliked, and you might not. Everyone's different.
     
  12. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    All still true, sad to say.

    There's a stretch of technical dialogue in Favorite Son that rather forthrightly that genetics don't determine behavior. I've never quite figured out if the DS9 fans in particular can't even review this episode because it implicitly rejects the whole moronic concept of the Jem'hadar (however it's spelled,) or whether the life is survival of the fittest types just have to hear that BLOOD (aka "race" by the terminally tactless,) IS ALL and just freak out on general principles. Either way, most of the tech dialogue in Favorite Son is notable because it makes sense, i.e., isn't actually technobabble.

    Or maybe they're just frightened by those scary doorways.:lol:
     
  13. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So you get your scientific information from terrible Voyager episodes? There's nothing moronic about the concept of the Jem Hadar, and there's a ton of genetic research that is finding markers that seem to pre-determine certain behavioural patterns that go on in life. Sometimes I think you're just the biggest troll on this forum but I can't tell what you're getting out of it.
     
  14. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    In several years from now, or whenever I revisit Voyager, my opinion of a lot of episodes is very likely to change. Hell, I used to love the first two Harry Potter movies, but nowadays they bore me to tears. I couldn't stand the Deathly Hallows Part 1 when I saw it in theaters, but when I rewatched it a year later I thought it was brilliant. The same thing is likely to happen with a lot of Trek episodes when I go back and rewatch them eventually. You_Will_Fail, how many times have you watched each episode of Voyager?
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    FWIW I've generally watched each episode under five times, and haven't seen any in years now, which may indicate that if I remember an episode as being good then it was pretty darn good, and vice versa for the bad.

    Then again, personal opinion can and will vary. :)

    But "Favorite Son" and "Before and After" having the same score was...I couldn't wrap my head around that one.

    One great element of seeing BaF without knowing how Voyager will pan out is that it essentially puts the show on a bit of a timetable...will the stuff that Kes saw come to pass? If it doesn't happen exactly as she saw it (somewhat of a gimme), what will happen instead?

    In some ways this episode is the "Q Who" of Voyager in terms of ominous foreshadowing.
     
  16. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    This is true. It's a bit difficult to REALLY discuss this episode because the OP hasn't yet seen what's to come, but suffice it to say Kes experiences one possible future for Voyager and her crew.

    Maybe he'll revisit his score for this episode after completing the series?
     
  17. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I may do that.

    And I hope I haven't offended anyone with my score. I'm just asking because I don't think I've ever had this much uproar over one of my ratings. Don't you guys ever disagree with the consensus?
     
  18. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I love DS9, and have no problems with the way this episode handles genetics/genetic memory/whatever gobbledegook. It's just a bad episode. It's extremely odd that a race would even develop the way they did, needing to steal other men for procreation and such. It just didn't seem plausible as a concept. The techno-babble was fine, and I bought it, but the concept itself is laughable.

    I don't see how this contradicts Jem'Hadar, care to expand on that?

    And, I'll just leave this gem here for later discussion: Jem'Hadar are blood related to the Hirogen (and the Tosk, too). Talk amongst yourselves.
     
  19. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    No worries, I'm not offended. This is YOUR thread, we're all just guests. Loud, opinionated guests.

    I disagree with the consensus on many episodes. But that's all part of the fun of discussing them! If we all agreed, TrekBBS would have less total posts. Or we'd all be like the Borg.
     
  20. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Well, I am horribly offended, and I wish a pox on all your houses.

    For what it's worth, I'm not a huge fan of TWOK either!