Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have to disagree here. "Threshold" is actually funny in som places if the Admiral Screed consider the possibility that the events in it never happened.

    Admiral Screed will understand what I mean after watching it, then I will come up with a more detailed theory about it.

    The only episode that should be avoided at all costs is "Fury". Stupid, mean, insulting and a disgrace for everything Star Trek.

    As for the ratings in the post above this one, how can season 6 and 4 have so high ratings? And why are the excellent seasons 2 and 3 in the bottom of the league?

    Sometimes I don't understand the people of this world. :(
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not all of us place the same value on Kes that you do. :)
     
  3. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    To give you guys an idea of what episodes I like and dislike, here are my ratings of each episode from season one. I rate episodes on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being awful, 10 being absolutely perfect, and 5 being borderline average (which is just fine, I should add).

    The Caretaker P1/P2 5
    Parallax 6
    Time and Again 5
    Phage 4
    The Cloud 4
    Eye of the Needle 7
    Ex Post Facto 4
    Emanations 3
    Prime Factors 7
    State of Flux 6
    Heroes and Demons 5
    Cathexis 4
    Faces 5
    Jetrel 6
    Learning Curve 6

    The more I analyze Prime Factors the more I appreciate it, that's why I gave it a 7 out of 10, making it the second best episode of season one behind Eye of the Needle.
    So, based on my ratings, how do you think I will respond to the later seasons?
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Avoid nothing.

    The painful episodes are wonderful.
     
  5. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well let's just compare the first five episodes from S2, S3, S4 and S6

    Episode 1:
    The 37's vs Basics Part II vs Scorpion Part II vs Equinox Part II

    S2 & S3: The 37's was implausible and frankly stupid and Basics Part II was a dreadful end to to the Kazon arc and a total anticlimax.
    S4 & S6 Both Scorpion and Equinox Part II admittedly were inferior to their Part I, but they were miles ahead of the "37s".

    Episode 2
    Initiations vs Flashback vs The Gift vs Survival Instinct

    S2 & S3: Inititations made me want to tear my hair out with boredom and Flashback was a complete mess that is embarrassing when compared to DS9' "Trials and Tribble-ations.
    S4 & S6: I didn't want to see you know who go either, but I still feel "The Gift" was well written and emotional and kept my interest unlike "Initiations". Likewise "Survival Instinct" had an emotional story to tell and it was well written, interesting and had a satisfying conclusion unlike its season 3 counterpart "Flashback".

    Episode 3
    Projections vs The Chute vs Day of Honor vs Barge of the Dead

    S2 & S3: I would classify both these episodes as good actually, I enjoyed them both very much
    S4 & S6: "Day of Honor" is nothing very special, equally as good as the "Chute" and probably just a bit less good than "Projections". "Barge of the Dead" however is my 2nd favorite Trek episode of all time, no Voyager episode compares with it for me

    Episode 4
    Elogium vs The Swarm vs Nemesis vs Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy

    S2 & S3: Both episodes were fairly mediocre to me. "Elogium" had Kes which is always a plus for me, but the writing just wasn't that great. And "The Swarm" had a faceless, boring enemy and techno-babble laden subplot. Not thrilling stuff
    S4 & S6: "Nemesis" wasn't streets ahead of "The Swarm" but "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy" was one of the most creative and funny comedy Trek episodes ever and blows the rest out of the water

    Episode 5
    Non Sequitur vs False Profits vs Revulsion vs Alice

    S2 & S3: "Non Sequitur was mediocre", but "False Profits" was just abysmal on every level.
    S4 & S6: Not great episodes here either, but both episodes are still superior to the painfully unfunny "False Profits" and bland "Non Sequitur"

    So yeah, overall I think that Season 2 and Season 3 were outclassed by quite a bit by Season 4 and Season 6 in terms of writing. I don't necessarily think Season 2 and Season 3 were full of TERRIBLE episodes, but there was a lot of mediocrity, albeit watchable mediocrity, going on there.
    And besides that, as I said, I do appreciate S2 and S3 a bit more than my analysis may show, as I liked the atmosphere/balanced characterization of them more than later seasons.

    I think you'll probably hate watching this show? I've never seen someone give HARSHER scores than TheGodBen did in his "A hater revists Voyager thread" (here http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=82112)
    Your reviews scores are also quite a lot lower than "Jammer" from www.jammersreviews.com who was also pretty harsh on the show. Your review scores seem comparable with sfdebris who hates the show, so at this rate, you probably will too!

    It makes me wonder what kind of quality you're expecting exactly and what kind of scale you're using when you give an episode like "Phage" 4/10 and Faces "5/10".
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  6. Lt. Beatings

    Lt. Beatings Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Nov 25, 2011
    Janeway/Seven centred plots became pretty boring for me and I skipped a lot of that.

    I like a lot of Season 4 though, particularly episodes which featured other characters.

    I went to

    http://www.geos.tv/index.php/index?sid=184&warn=voy

    and only download episodes rated 8.0 or higher, with plots that interested me.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    The good episodes are great if you watch the shittier episodes too.

    Which makes the actually great episodes outstanding.

    It's all about contrast.
     
  8. Trek Survivor

    Trek Survivor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I only watched the first couple of seasons back in the 1990s and my wife (who enjoyed recent watches of TNG and DS9) & I decided to give it another crack. Gave it up at the episode "Resistance" (about episode 27ish...).

    I like the concept of Voyager. I like the first handful of episodes when there was potential. But I just can't invest time in this series. Knowing bits and pieces from upcoming seasons, and other opinions I've read, kind of reaffirms my position that me and Voyager just "aren't meant to be".
     
  9. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Nov 5, 2011
    Here's my scale:

    10-9: Perfect, or near perfect. One of the best Star Trek episodes ever.
    7-8: Great! Not as perfect as it could be, but nonetheless a very, very enjoyable episode. No real complaints.
    5-6: Good. Not one of the best episodes ever, but very good. Some minor nitpicks or quibbles, but overall a fine, average episode.
    3-4: Below Average. Some issues here and there that seriously affect my enjoyment of the episode, but also some redeeming qualities that make it worthwhile. Not bad, but not good either.
    1-2: Poor. An episode full of schlock that's hardly worthwhile.

    5 out of 10 looks bad on paper, but it really isn't a bad score according to my scale.

    To give you an idea of rated other Trek seasons, here are my ratings for TNG season 7:

    Descent P2 5
    Liaisons 6
    Interface 5
    Gambit P1/2 8
    Phantasms 5
    Dark Page 3
    Attached 6
    Force of Nature 3
    Inheritance 5
    Parallels 9
    The Pegasus 7
    Homeward 5
    Sub Rosa 4
    Lower Decks 7
    Thine Own Self 7
    Masks 3
    Eye of the Beholder 5
    Genesis 4
    Journey’s End 8
    Firstborn 6
    Bloodlines 4
    Emergence 5
    Preemptive Strike 9
    All Good Things P1/2 9
     
  10. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    What other program has all these basic qualifications?
    Their is science daring-do, top notch adventure and screen graphics, women in rut running from one end of the screen to the other, advanced conjectural ethics, super quantum electro-dynamics. This is all here to serve the minds-eye.
     
  11. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    See, it baffles me how you consider "Emergence", "Homeward" and "Interface" better than "Phage". I thought Phage had a great mixture of tragedy, humor, suspense and the introduction of a fascinating villain and a great scene where Janeway confronts them. I also wouldn't consider "Emanations" on the same low level as "Forces of Nature" or "Masks". Both those were incomprehensible messes, I thought "Emanations" did a decent job exploring death and the afterlife.
    Likewise I think the concept and well written drama of "Faces" would elevate it above episodes like "Interface" and "Emergence"

    Well its good you're enjoying it so far at least, but you're definitely a harsher critic than me since I would classify 5 season 1 episodes as "excellent"! It will be interesting to see what you think of future episodes, keep us updated!
     
  12. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    In hindsight, I think I was a little harsh on a few episodes. I've changed my rating for "Emanations" from 3 to 4, "Phage" from 4 to 5, and "Faces" from 5 to 6.

    I started season 2 yesterday by watching the first two episodes. Here are my ratings:

    The 37's 5
    Initiations 4

    I thought The 37's had some fun moments, but there are a few big implausibilities (why would Delta Quadrant aliens kidnap humans from the Alpha Quadrant just to use them as slaves???), and once again the writers dangled the possibility of returning to the Delta Quadrant in our faces even though it was obvious they wouldn't returning because it was only the beginning of the show, and they had done the same thing many times before. Nevertheless, it was a fun episode with some good moments.

    Initiations has two main problems. 1) The child Kazon is extremely annoying. Not sure if I should blame Aron Eisenberg or the writers, but nevertheless the scenes with him made me cringe. 2) The Kazon are essentially the Delta Quadrant version of the Klingons, except less cool (at this point). I'm hoping that they will develop more as the show progresses.
    I liked the way Chakotay stood by his principles in this episode. He was unwilling to kill the child (who had tried to kill him, I might add) even if it meant that he could escape. And he was even willing to let the kid "kill" him just to restore his honor.

    So, am I being too harsh, or do you think my ratings are fair?
     
  13. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The 37s was what's called a soft reboot. It was an episode designed to fundamentally change the premise of the show. In this case, after this episode everyone on board was there willingly. If you didn't throw something at the tv screen when Janeway sees an empty room because no one chose to stay, then the show succeeded triumphantly in its job. People like Ron Moore who rant about the premise are either too stupid to notice or just lying about what they really dislike.
     
  14. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't get where you're coming from with this at all. Voyager had tons of plausibility and premise related problems, the piece of crap "The 37s" can't explain them all away.

    Anyway, I'd give "Phage" a 9. What did you feel wasn't so great about it? I can't think of anything in the episode I didn't like to be honest!

    And I hate "The 37s" and "Inititations". The former was just plain DUMB and not in a fun way like "Genesis". And Initiations was just boring to me.
     
  15. RandyS

    RandyS Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But not much.

    It's not a bad show, but if you're expecting it to be EPIC (and let's be honest here, you are), you will be disapointed.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Yes and no. That's all I can really say.
     
  17. controlfreak

    controlfreak Commander Red Shirt

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    Like all the series, there were some great episodes and not so good ones. Watch the show and make your own opinions.
     
  18. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I think part of the problem is that I'm watching this show coming off of DS9. I'm used to long story arcs, recurring guest characters, lots of development, and larger scale conflicts. So far, VOY hasn't had much of any of this. But then again, TNG wasn't usually this way either, and I absolutely loved it.

    @You Will Fail: About Phage, the only thing that bothered me was Neelix after his lungs were removed. All of his banter throughout the episode got to be kind of annoying. And more importantly than that, it just wasn't an important episode with severe consequences. With the exception of a new alien species being introduced, this episode didn't have a large impact on the characters or the series as a whole. I suppose if you love Faces, then you're going to love Phage because that's the episode that introduced the Vidians (is that the name of the species?), but otherwise it wasn't an important episode.
    Anyway, just my opinion. What is it that you loved so much about Phage?
     
  19. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ron Moore once cut off stj in traffic and he took it as a personal slight that needs to be avenged. (That's my theory at any rate.) As a result, stj brings up Ron Moore obsessively in order to bash the man and his fans, even in threads where nobody is talking about Ron Moore (such as in this thread). It's really quite comical.

    This is an issue with the show as a whole. In fact, most of the episodes that seem to have a big impact on the characters don't really. It's something you have to accept in order to enjoy the show's good episodes.
     
  20. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    In retrospective, I think I have been a little harsh on certain episodes, and overall my expectations have been too high. Here is my updated list of ratings for every episode I have seen so far.


    Season One
    The Caretaker P1/P2 5
    Parallax 6
    Time and Again 5
    Phage 5
    The Cloud 4
    Eye of the Needle 7
    Ex Post Facto 4
    Emanations 4
    Prime Factors 7
    State of Flux 7
    Heroes and Demons 5
    Cathexis 4
    Faces 7
    Jetrel 6
    Learning Curve 6

    Season Two
    The 37’s 5
    Initiations 4

    Not much of a difference, but still worthwhile. I'm not doing this to appease Voyager fans that disagree with my ratings, I just feel that I've been approaching this show the wrong way. It's not going to be another TNG, nor is it going to be anything like DS9. I think that if I can come to terms with that, then I'll enjoy this show a lot more in the long run. Not that I'm not enjoying it, because I really am. But I do think that I will enjoy Voyager even more if I can go into each episode without such high expectations.
     

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