Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Far Beyond The Stars isn't about racism as it is about finding faith. The story starts out by showing Sisko suffering from a lack of faith to survive the war, Benny is writing a story that he has faith will inspire others. Racism is the obstacle that that is testing his own faith to survive. In the end, the story ends with Sisko regaining his faith. Racism is just the back drop, no different space is the back drop from Trek to tell stories of social & political injustices.
    "Far Beyond the Stars" is exactly what Gene Roddenberry created Trek for. Seriously, have you forgotten that Roddenberry was creating Trek during an American revolution when Civil/Equal rights was a huge issue? It's the exact reason why he wanted a multi-racial/mulit-gender cast. Trek is about understanding equality and diversity. That is why it gets praise and rightfully so.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012
  2. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Of course I understand that Star Trek originally tackled issues like racism and sexism. But DS9 wasn't made in the 60's. Many issues that were extremely relevant back then, like racism, were not nearly as relevant in the 1990's. I'm not saying that racism had entirely been eliminated by the time this episode aired, but it wasn't an issue in the way it was back in the 60's.
    Also, in your first paragraph you said that racism was only the backdrop of Far Beyond The Stars, and then in your next paragraph (the one I quoted) you stated that this episode was praised for its message about equality and diversity. What exactly were you trying to say? I would answer the question myself, but I don't care for this episode, nor do I understand why this episode is so widely praised.
     
  3. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Going back to Voyager, I watched two more episodes.

    Warlord: An exciting plot and a terrific performance by the actor who plays Kes! I found the aliens-of-the-week for this episode to be pretty dull, and the scenes on the holodeck were a waste of time, but these were not significant issues because most of the story revolves around Kes and Teiran, and that is what interested me the most.
    6/10

    The Q and the Grey: I hate to say it, but this is probably the worst Q episode yet. The whole civil war plot was ridiculous nonsense, and Q wanting to mate with Janeway got old after awhile. Despite these problems, this episode had some redeeming qualities. The opening of the episode with Q stalking Janeway and trying to seduce her was funny (but it got old after awhile), and I also really enjoyed the scenes with the female Q, especially her scene with B'ellana.
    4/10
     
  4. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I love "Warlord." Jennifer Lien did a great job. I only wish that they had given her more episodes like this where she could show off her acting talents.
     
  5. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    Warlord was the only episode where Jennifer Lien shines, which is disappointing because she's not playing Kes.

    Also, best thing about that episode is that from here on out, Neelix gets better!
     
  6. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Exactly my issue. Maybe if they'd tackled homosexuality or something then I'd find the episode a bit relevant and interesting.

    RE: Warlord - It was a pretty standard episode not really taking advantage of Voyager's premise but the execution was decent although I thought the lighting was ugly in this episode like it is in much of season 3. It did at least provide some insight into Kes's character unlike a lot of other possession stories since it showed her resolve into trying to regain control of her body. It probably straddles "mediocre" and "good" for me. I think Lien's performance is pretty good here but I think her performance in Before and After and The Gift is better. The Gift clearly had the most genuine emotions on screen in any Trek episode.

    RE: The Q and the Grey - It really was nonsensical trash. SFdebris's review said it all.
     
  7. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I liked her in season 2's "Projections" and 3's "Before and After"... where she definately was playing Kes both times. :)

    Neelix got better when TPTB let him "grow up". :bolian:
     
  8. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Macrocosm: I don't think I've ever been as uncomfortable watching an episode of Star Trek as I was watching Macrocosm. The virus was disgusting, in particular the way flies flew out of the crew member's necks. I also didn't care for "action movie Janeway." It seemed like the producer's were trying too hard to copy Ripley from the Alien films with Janeway in this episode (Note: I'm not a fan of the Alien films, but I was just making an observation). Oh and, before I forget, the Tak Tak were extremely annoying. I hope Janeway blew their ship to pieces as soon as Voyager became operational again.
    I did enjoy all of the scenes with the Doctor, and I thought the flashbacks to the crew being infected were interesting. And despite some of my gripes, this episode was exciting at times.
    4/10
     
  9. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Fair Trade: A great episode about sticking to your principles and telling the truth. I really felt for Neelix because he was put in some pretty tough positions, but in the end he did the right thing and fessed up to his mistakes. I was a little bothered that he didn't fess up sooner, but again, he was in a tough spot so I don't entirely blame him. I also really liked the set design for the station; the dark corridors were very eerie and shady looking.
    7/10
     
  10. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  11. spot_loves_data

    spot_loves_data Captain Captain

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    "Ripley knock-off" was what I thought when I saw that one. I couldn't get past how the macro virus just flew through the air without any explanation. And that neck thing was hideous. Sometimes VOY just got carried away with the horror effects - the Vidiians, Tom's semi-transformed state in Threshold, and this. It's too grisly for my tastes, but at least there wasn't much of it.

    The set design really was good for this one, but in its own way, I thought it was as preachy as Far Beyond The Stars. The way they delivered the moral about telling the truth felt so heavy handed. It was like watching an after school special.
     
  12. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The difference was that "Far Beyond the Stars" was pointing the finger at the viewer/society we live in and preached at us. "Fair Trade" wasn't like that at all, it wasn't judging us personally, our history or our society. It was just a nice morality play.

    I liked "Fair Trade". On a rewatch, I realized it was a great piece of character development and I could never hate Neelix like so many people do because he was at least a somewhat realistic character. He wrestles with real issues throughout the show and issues not to be taken lightly, this is the 2nd of Neelix's many great character episodes coming after "Jetrel" and before "Mortal Coil".

    Re: Macrocosm. It was like "Genesis" but without any of the fun. "Genesis" kind of fell apart when Data and Picard arrived on the ship but we did at least get the great first act with everyone starting to behave strangely and we got some funny character interactions. "Macrocosm" just felt like a much duller and less interesting affair. A really mediocre episode.
     
  13. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Kim was not a main character. But the mock character the Doctor creates in Author, Author shows the supposed hypochondria very clearly. The arguments with the Doctor as ECH and with Seven of Nine when his number in her minicollective for a project is dropped show the other.

    Oh, my. Try rewatching Timeless, where Kim is somehow such a fuckup that not even the entire resources of Starfleet cannot help him to figure out a way to both save Voyager and get it home. All those years spent working on the problem, getting all that advice and second opinions, down the drain. As to his brilliance, there are of course numerous scenes, where he got to do the grunt work so that the main characters like Paris didn't sully our ears with technobabble.

    First, poor old Jammer's reviews are pretty crappy. The plot of Nightingale requires that not just Kim, who is emotionally invested in the people he saved, but the entire command staff of Voyager simply don't bother to question the Kraylor. This is an idiot plot, and as such is a major negative about the episode. Yet that review doesn't notice it? If you're going to ignore what I write, don't bother posting. Those reviews are third rate at best and do not constitute an authority to cite.

    Second, what consquences do you expect? That Kim and Janeway will be at daggers' points the rest of the series? Or just something as simple as ginger efforts to reconcile? Since Kim is not a main character, the series isn't going to "waste" time on his relationship with Janeway. If he even has one. Yes, it's clear that he views Janeway as a mother figure, but it is never quite clear that Janeway feels anything reciprocal. And this is no accident. But you've made it clear to me that one reason the Kim character is so unpopular is that he has a kind of Mommy, and that isn't geek fantasy. Incidentally, Libby is not notably more beautiful than any other young woman in the Federation.

    Everything I've seen is that he wanted to do more scenes where he was dashing, sexy, commanding, maybe even macho, decisive, a man's man of bold action, the kind of man who has women like Seska adoring him. His player persona, which as I said still had no place on the series, because Janeway was the Captain, and the Captain is the primary decider, which means the usual center of action. Whether the second officer agrees or not, he obeys, which appears to be part of the problem with the Chakotay character, both for some viewers and Beltran.

    As I said, Beltran didn't seem to be interested in much beside his player persona. However, the differences between early and later Kim, who is a minor character after all, are still clearest if you watch, just as I was explaining here. Why quote this if you were going to ignore it? As it is, you're just confirming that you really agree with me about Beltran, right after you felt free to condescend for saying what you really think too.
     
  14. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    stj, can you leave your debates about the show as a whole for another thread?
    This is Admiralscreed's thread and he stated clearly he didn't want any spoilers here and we should respect his wishes so this probably isn't the best place for you to be talking about this since you're kind of spoiling episodes left right and center.
     
  15. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I've given you my reasons for why I dislike Far Beyond Stars. If those reasons don't make sense to you, then there's not much more I can do to help you understand.
     
  16. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Then we'll just agree to disagree and move forward.;)
     
  17. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    Alter Ego: A fun episode that nicely explores Tuvok and Kim. I do think that Kim acted very childish, but that was actually part of what made his scenes so funny. At the end of the episode I think that Kim should have been the one to apologize to Tuvok, not the other way around. Tuvok did not act inappropriately, so I see no reason why he should have apologized to Kim.
    6/10

    Coda: This was a very moving episode. In particular, I found the memorial scene to be very emotional and powerful. The beginning of the episode was also full of twists and turns and lots of excitement. The outcome of this episode wasn't as predictable as the outcome in Resolutions, so on the whole I don't really have any complaints about this episode.
    8/10

    A couple comments on the show as a whole so far:
    -Garrett Wang can't act to save his life. Fortunately his character is written as a naive little child, so his bad acting can actually be pretty entertaining at times (and at other times it can completely ruin scenes).
    -The writers REALLY need to get their act together. If it weren't for the terrific cast (with the exception of Wang) I don't think I would be enjoying this show very much. As it is right now I am only partially enjoying it. Season 2 was great, but season 1 was a big let down, and so far season 3 hasn't been mind blowingly good.
    -On the topic of acting, so far I have been most impressed with the actors who play The Doctor, B'Elanna, Tom Paris, Neelix, Tuvok, and Janeway. They've consistently given great performances, even when the script is horrendous. Chakotay and Kes have just been okay in my book and as I said I can't stand Kim.
     
  18. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    That would be a most logical next step. :vulcan:
     
  19. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with all this.
    However, I do like in "Alter Ego" the implication that Tuvok & Kim can be good friends when Tom isn't around.
    I all I can say is I found seasons 4 and 5 Voyager's strongest, I just hope you do too.
     
  20. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Thank you, Mr. Vulcan. :lol: