Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    You Will Fail wrote
    You and alot of other people think character development in Voyager is completely non-existent. The series began with the premise that the characters were already developed. A bunch of people out of the academy has alot to do but not in the way of personnal development.
    Janeway never elected Tom to get a second chance if she didn't know he was mature. She trusted and relied on all of her officers.
    What I like about Voyager is every episode started a completely different story, following new tactics and exploring new scientific endeavors. This was less important in DS9.
     
  2. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well even Garret Wang said his character was nothing more than a cardboard cutout and yet you're superimposing all these supposedly visible character changes that were so subtly and masterfully inserted as the seasons went on. It must be great to live in your world stj where everything is actually better than it is in reality.


    What world do you live in? Cuz it sure as heck ain't the same one I'm in.

    I liked that too, but single good stories each week isn't everything. There's the step back to look at the show as a whole - character development, cohesiveness, realization of initial potential and many things that Voyager did fail at. If that stuff doesn't concern you or you wave it away with bizarre logic like "the crew of Voyager were already developed so it made sense we saw no more development in the 7 years they were in this totally unique and life-changing experience" then that's your choice but I'd rather face facts.
     
  3. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    There definitely was character development for all of the people on the show, even Harry, but for a lot of these characters it's so subtle that it might as well not have happened. The only reason I noticed it on my re-watch of the series was because I flew through it very quickly. Watching it over the course of seven years, you make not notice it at all.
     
  4. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Less important in DS9 ? DS9 deliberately had an underlying story arc, depth and development - exactly the opposite of the stand alone episodic model for shows.

    It wasn't less important - it was recognised as an alternative and inferior approach and dismissed in favour of a more mature and rewarding format.
     
  5. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Recognised by whom to be an "inferior" approach? I love arc storytelling, but you can't just throw shit out like that. They obviously didn't think it was that bad that they returned to it two years later when Voyager premiered.
     
  6. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well by most critics for one. "Deep Space Nine" is still a much better received show than "Voyager" in the popular media.
    Just off the top of the head, DS9 features in both IGN's top 50 sci-fi shows list (#12) and Empire Magazine's top 50 tv shows ever list (#47) while Voyager doesn't. Over the years, I've seen DS9 praised much more than VOY and VOY derided much more than DS9 in various magazines and publications.
     
  7. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I'm not talking about the shows. I'm talking about the storytelling methods. The post implied that episodic TV is considered an inferior format, which doesn't make any sense since they decided to return to that format for Voyager.
     
  8. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    "Deciding" to return to episodic format does not imply episodic format is superior. It implies that the idiots in charge thought it was superior.

    Anyway, I think the original context was that arc storytelling is the more complex and rewarding format; not episodic. Someone got their pronouns mixed up.
     
  9. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    The only point I was making was that neither is superior or inferior. It all depends on what you do with them.
     
  10. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I would disagree. In critical circles, the episodic format these days is definitely mostly regarded as outdated, inferior, bland and a bit lazy when it comes to hour-long dramas. All the bland procedurals on CBS spring to mind - NCIS, Criminal Minds etc. They pale in comparison to the shows that have properly serialized seasons.
    On the other side of the coin, making a show serialized can definitely help it hold onto viewers as the show won't get confuse viewers with complicated and detailed lore and backstory (which has happened with "Fringe" I think) - but for viewers who have stayed with a serialized show, the rewards are bigger over those who just tune in for an adventure of the week type show.
     
  11. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I guess it depends on what "rewards" your talking about. I personally prefer serialized shows, but shows such as those on CBS manage to hold on to a lot of viewers. From the network's perspective, episodic TV is a lot easier to grab new viewers because they can usually jump in whenever they want.
     
  12. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, but the creative team behind DS9 were brilliant and so was the show.

    The decisions made by the Voyager team were poor and so was the show...
     
  13. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    I particularly like how Ron Moore transferred to Deep Space 9 after TNG ended and wrote some of its best episodes. Then, when DS9 ended, he transferred to Voyager and wrote one episode before quitting because the Voyager production team was shit. He then proceeded to make the phenomenal Battlestar Galactica as a big "F-U" to the Star Trek universe.
     
  14. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nailed it in one...

    If anyone's not read it yet, Ron Moore on Voyager :

    http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  15. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    And I wont spoil it for the OP AdmiralScreed, but the episode that Ron Moore wrote was pretty damn good.
     
  16. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That interview/transcript is all BS. And he conveniently forgets all the prior established stuff that would keep any of that from happening in VOY.

    Moore has no real say in the matter, his own attempt at a "VOY done right" thing ran out of steam after 2 seasons before collapsing in less than 4 seasons.

    And to top it off, he couldn't even make such a show from scratch, he had to use a pre-existing series to lift stuff from to make it!
     
  17. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My view is that he could take an existing franchise and turn it into something great in a similar way to Alan Moore used to in the comics field.

    He'd have made a big difference to Voyager...
     
  18. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

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    So.... you didn't like BSG?

    So.... you didn't like Batman Begins or The Dark Knight, or just about everything Frank Miller has ever done?

    Some of the best stuff is re-imagined.
     
  19. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sure, whatever Anwar :rolleyes:
    Heard it all before, still not remotely convinced.
     
  20. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    You'll have to refresh my memory as to where the hypochondria comes up. I don't remember it. As to being mildly resentful towards not being promoted, that would have been an interesting character trait had it actually been played (two lines of dialogue -- all I can remember -- don't count).

    When was he a complete fuck up? Kim's character was that he was brilliant at his work (as evidenced by joining the senior staff of a choice assignment right out of the Academy), but inept outside of it (as evidenced by his awkwardness with women as the show went on, but immediately illustrated in "Caretaker" when Quark almost talks him out of his money). Of course, we're also supposed to believe that he has a beautiful and attractive fiance back home. If that isn't geek wish fulfillment, it's certainly inconsistent writing.

    I must confess I don't remember a second of "Nightingale," but I was amused to read Jammer's review of the episode and have one of the first things come up be this comment:

    Yeah, he was played as naive from beginning to end, except for the occasional outlier like "The Disease." Of course, in the true fashion of the series, Harry's mistake and Janeway's dressing down don't have any repercussions.

    This comment is silly. From numerous interviews and convention appearances, its obvious Beltran wanted to be doing more, but the writers didn't give him the material.

    Sounds like a description of a bored actor to me, especially in light of Beltran's interviews during and after the series.