Does It Get Better???

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by AdmiralScreed, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    A couple more Voyager episodes:

    Remember: A touching story, but not much more than that. Filler, but good filler.
    5/10

    Sacred Ground: Not a particularly interesting episode; I didn't really care for the aliens, and if it weren't for Kes' stupidity at the beginning, this episode wouldn't even have a plot. Still, it had its moments; the three elders (who I believe are supposed to be the spirits) were funny and interesting, and some of Janeway's trials were intriguing.
    4/10
     
  2. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2000
    Location:
    QC, IL, USA
    I always liked "Remember." Generally speaking, I like any episode where B'Elanna is the focus.
     
  3. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    It's interesting you say that. I like B'Elanna as a character quite a bit, but I haven't loved any of the episodes that focused on her. I gave Faces, Prototype, and Dreadnought 6's, which is a very good score but still not great. None of her episodes have gotten a higher rating than that. Just an observation.

    Also, on a side note I am changing my rating for Sacred Ground from a 4 to a 3. On the whole it was just very dull and non profound.
     
  4. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    "The Chute" was good on a first watch and I enjoyed the darkness of the episode, it wasn't that overly sterile look/feel we always get in Star Trek particularly TNG and VOY.
    As for "Remember", I think by filler here you mean the kind of show any trek could do and the idea originally was made for TNG as a Deanna Troi story so that's kinda true. I did enjoy it though and would class it "good", I thought the ending was quite emotional and it was nice to see how emotionally affected B'Ellana got by it - I love B'Ellana episodes.

    As for "Sacred Ground", it was ok but not that good. Its funny how in trek we sometimes have stories that are on the side of spirituality and then we have ones staunchly on the other side of the fence.


    Its true, early B'Ellana episodes do tend to revolve around her fixing stuff but later on she gets fantastic episodes that deal with her emotions, insecurities, family issues etc and Dawson always gives a very powerful, memorable performance. My 2nd favorite trek episode is actually a season 6 B'Ellana story.
     
  5. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    I also liked the mention of Neelix's ship, which was mentioned as being stored in Caretaker and then rarely heard from again.

    The only downside, though, is having Neelix's ship highlights some of the other problems with Voyager. The ship is too small to have two shuttlebays, so where was Neelix's ship being held? Where were various other ships [spoiler free] that Voyager takes-in at various times during later seasons being stored? Where was Voyager getting all these Shuttlecraft (by most counts, they destroyed at least 17 Shuttlecrafts during the show). Not to mention, the main shuttlebay's doors appear to be too small for Neelix's ship to actually pass through.

    The writer's didn't really stick to any kind of show bible throughout the series, which I think leads to a lot of fan disappointment.
     
  6. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    Really?
    You found a story about mass genocide just filler?:wtf::wtf:

    I think it becomes profound after you watch the entire series.
    Think being lost and alone in the "wilderness", you need to understand faith & force of will can get you though were science can't. Faith is basically what Guinan told Riker he needed to beat the Borg and save Picard. It's faith that makes Janeway believe she can get the crew home.;)

    They presented it as tied into religion but even Atheists believe in faith in themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  7. Misco

    Misco Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2001
    Location:
    The Primary Universe
    I'm not going to argue that Sacred Ground is the most exciting Voyager episode but I will say that it portrays an aspect of Janeway's character in a way that is not really repeated again. As exodus points out, we know Janeway possesses faith of a kind (in herself, in her crew, getting home etc), but rarely is that faith demonstrated in quite so overt a manner as it is when she lifts Kes and takes her to the shrine entrance. I also think the 'trials' she invents for herself and the reaction she has to the Doctor's scientific explanation of the cure are rather revealing of her as a character; depth of character, something that Voyager was never big on. For these reasons I think it could be argued that Sacred Ground is a little profound. A little.
     
  8. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Those are all good reasons for why Sacred Ground could be considered at least somewhat profound. I agree this episode did show a different side of Janeway, arguably a deeper side. But that alone can't save this episode from being drab and dull. My rating stands.
     
  9. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2011
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am assuming that the events of this episode will never be mentioned again. So, in that sense you could skip over this episode and not miss out on anything. It's true that you would be missing out on a fine episode, but nothing that happens in this episode has any affect on what will happen later on the show (again, for those of you who have seen the entire show, correct me if I am wrong).
    I'm not saying being filler is bad, but when the entire story of the episode hinges on aliens who were just introduced, and who will never be heard from again after this episode, it is a little bit harder to be invested in their plight. In particular, these telepathic aliens aren't all that interesting. The story surrounding them is, but they as an alien species are not. We've seen telepathic aliens dozens of times, so these aliens are nothing new. Some of my favorite filler episode aliens-of-week were the Mediator and his Chorus in "Loud as a Whisper" (TNG), Fear the Clown in "The Thaw", and the aliens in "Darmok" (TNG).
    I am just telling you all of this in order to justify my score and reason for calling it filler.
     
  10. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    Sacred Ground was a decent episode, but the whole time I kept comparing the Guide to Kai Winn. That did not bode favorably for the Guide. I always thought there was something fishy going on...
     
  11. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Location:
    the real world
    The basic story of Voyager is that they are trying to get home. When they get home, the story is over. Everything that happens along the way is filler. This doesn't strike some of us as so bad, as we find that life tends to come at us more like "filler" than a serialized story. Some of the stories in Voyager are coming from a different life experience. The scene in The Chute when they discover what the prison really is, is a dramatization of enlightenment about the world around us, as well as a cool visual. And the prison isn't just a cage for Paris and Kim but the prison of our limited understanding and limited roles in society.
     
  12. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    I see no reason why the events during the journey should neither be remembered nor have an affect on later stories. Life may not be as tightly structured as a carefully constructed serialized story, but it's certainly not a collection of incidents that are immediately forgotten and without after-effects. Unfortunately, that describes the vast majority of the stories told on the series. There's little progression from beginning to end, as evidenced by the way the production order was sometimes reshuffled when the episodes were aired (something you wouldn't know if production information hadn't been made available).
     
  13. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Location:
    The Black Country, England
    Short answer - yes, it does get better, mainly after season three, but never really exceeds OK.

    Easily the worst series in my opinion, and a hugely wasted opportunity.
     
  14. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    What was the lasting effect of Deanna Troi after her mind rape beyond that ep.?
    How about LeForge after being brainwashed by the Romulans?
    O'Brian beyond "Hard Times"?
    Sisko after poisoning a planet?
    Hell, the crew of the Enterprise in "Genesis"
    There have been several times in ALL the series were severe traumatic events are forgotten by the next episode with no lasting effects in any series. Voyager is no different. We accepted it then, so we gave them the green light to continue.
     
  15. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Los Angeles, California
    This is certainly true. Where I'm afraid we differ is that I don't think Star Trek: Voyager was the same occasional offender as every other series in the franchise (excluding the original series, which was produced in a different era).

    To put it simply, episodic amnesia wasn't an occasional conceit of a television series on Star Trek: Voyager -- it was the modus operandi of the program.
     
  16. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Location:
    Trill, Federation World and Proud
    Oh, brother!

    Anyway. Yes, "episodic amnesia" is basically the hallmark of Voyager and a bigger crime in that show than in TNG or TOS given the fact it aired after those shows and had a different concept that lent itself more to serialization. But I just rate episodes by their individual merits like I would a TNG episode. However when it comes to rating the actual show itself, I obviously take a different approach and consider more than just all the individual parts but rather the whole thing.
     
  17. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    I think Voyager was made for the next generation, just like TNG and DS9 was made for ours. Many of the die hard Voyager fans are aware of the flaws and don't care. I think it's ok to step back and simply say, "Voyager just wasn't geared toward me." and not be bitter towards it.(not saying you're bitter, just generally speaking)
     
  18. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    DS9 and Voyager ran concurrently, and I am a member of this nebulous "Next Generation" (tighr: est. 1983).

    I vastly prefer DS9's serialized storytelling to Voyager's episodic. Arguably, a serialized format actually makes more sense for a show like Voyager with an established endgame. (Unless you consider Bajor's admittance to the Federation as an established endgame, that show could have just as easily continued after that event took place).
     
  19. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    I always found DS9 to be more of "The Story of Sisko" than anything to do with Bajor. Bajor joining the Feds. was just a catalyst to get him out there IMPOV..

    Frankly, I find Voyager fun. I think Trek needed a little fun thrown it because it takes itself too seriously. Besides Riker and Dax nobody from the TNG or DS9 crew knew what fun was, even on vacation. The Voyager crew made work seem like fun and not a burden. Nobody but Quark ever seemed to truly like what they did. They were honored but never thrilled.

    Too put it simply, I liked TNG & DS9 because it's serious.
    I like Voyager because I can allow my mind to go on vacation and enjoy.
     
  20. tighr

    tighr Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2011
    Location:
    California
    Funny you mention that, I watched DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." last week on Netflix. Dax is having a great time on Risa, meanwhile Worf refuses to take off his Starfleet uniform and eventually joins a puritanical movement. Hilarity ensues.
     

Share This Page