Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by bbjeg, Sep 6, 2013.

?

Do fans want the prime timeline back?

  1. I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back.

    56.0%
  2. I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back.

    16.4%
  3. I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back.

    11.1%
  4. I don't care, just give me Trek!

    14.6%
  5. I don't know.

    1.9%
  1. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I hate Section 31.
     
  2. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    Don't get me wrong, overall liked DS9. It showed a unique side of Starfleet and how everyone didn't get along in the galaxy like TNG would have you believe (more or less) but their "End justifies the means" attitude shifted TNG's moral base attitude (which was probably their goal to began with).
     
  3. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    I don't think they did anything to suggest that that approach was beyond...well, reproach.

    It's Sisko's choice, but one thing I like about the episode is that they hold back on any suggestion that it is obviously the "right" choice.

    Indeed, it may be that only history will be able to cast any judgment on that, much like Janeway's decision to send Voyager home ahead of schedule regardless of the consequences to the timeline.
     
  4. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    ^That's my point, it was the obvious/logical choice, and not the "right" choice.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    But how is it the right choice just to curl up and die or wait for a miracle?
     
  6. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Location:
    Oxford, PA
    And which, honestly, was probably not a bad thing--and closer to the sometimes painful choices and more complicated morality of the original STAR TREK.

    Remembering Kirk deciding to "bend" the Prime Directive by arming the locals in a "A Private Little War"--or letting Edith Keeler get hit by a truck in "City on Edge of Forever"--or even seducing Lenore Karidian in order to expose her father's atrocities?

    One could argue that DS9 was just getting back to the less "utopian" morality of TOS where Starfleet captains couldn't always keep their hands clean.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  7. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    If Sisko's decision leads to a war with the Romulans that proves more devastating than the Dominion War, would it still have been the "right" choice?

    In any case, since I believe the term "right" involves morality and non-benevolent willful deception compromises morality, IMO it's impossible for a choice involving non-benevolent willful deception to be "right".
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    How can a war with a technologically equal race end up being more devastating than losing the Dominion war and having thousands of Jem'Hadar soldiers on every Federation planet?

    I simply don't buy it. Plus, drawing the Romulans into the war would also have the benefit of depleting their resources and ability to make war. If the Federation was able to somehow come out victorious against the Dominion on its own, it would be so weakened that it would be easy pickings for a Romulan Empire that sat on the sidelines.
     
  9. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Location:
    Oxford, PA
    Which is not to say that there wasn't risk of blowback and negative consequences down the road. It was a messy, complicated situation that didn't lend itself to simple, black-and-white considerations of right and wrong--which was entirely the point of the episode.
     
  10. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Just because the Romulans are technologically equal at the time of DS9 doesn't mean they'll continue to be. As their animosity towards Vulcans shows, they're quite capable of holding grudges.

    You're welcome not to buy it, but that doesn't mean it won't happen at some point.

    If we were to look at the novelverse, right now the Romulan praetor is fairly well-disposed towards the Federation (at least she is at the point I'm at in the books). It's easy enough to imagine that if Sisko's deception came out at this point in time, that would be at least temporarily shaken. Even if the praetor herself understood why Sisko did what he did, could we reasonably expect the Romulans as a people to simply overlook the situation?
     
  11. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Eh, it was a pretty sure thing that not getting help from the Romulans against the Dominion would be catastrophic. So, deal with that first, and if it led to war with The Romulans later (Which sure wasn't a certainty, whereas the Dominion dominance pretty much was) then deal with that, at that time.
     
  12. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    ^But that was my point, Sisko didn't plan to deal with it later. He didn't plan to deal with it at all.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    Sure he did. He erased the log entry and any evidence of his or the Federation's culpability. The only way he could do a better job of that is arrange an accident for Garak. Win the war with the Dominion today before you worry about the war with the Romulans tomorrow.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Why would he? He achieved his objective by bringing the Romulans into the war.

    From everything we've seen, it seemed the Romulans never really had the stomach for an out-and-out war with the Federation.
     
  15. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    If you're on the second or third floor of a building that is burning, and you can't get out through the stairs or elevator, you jump out the window and hope for the best. You may break your neck, or at least your leg, but, you don't plan, at that point in time to deal with that, since you don't what will happen to you until you hit the ground, which has got to be better than burning to death. "Planning" for what would happen when you jump out the window would mean calling a doctor, etc. You worry about fixing your broken leg or whatever, after you have escaped the fire, you don't waste time, possibly burning to death in the process of planning for what might happen when you hit the ground
     
  16. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    The Romulans didn't shy away from war with the Dominion, granted with the evidence in hand, it was in the interest of their self-preservation.

    Self-interest is what motivates them and generally wars cost more than they're worth. If they did find out about Sisko's gambit, it could lead to war. Of course it could lead to them making territorial demands like say cede us the Neutral Zone or something. Even if Sisko's evidence was fabricated, the gist of it was likely very accurate.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Evidently the Romulans didn't believe it was accurate, and we're likely viewing this through a fair bit of Federation bias.

    It sounds unlikely, but not impossible, that the Dominion might have ultimately left the Romulans (and, for that matter, others that they had non-aggression pacts with) alone if and when they were done with the Allies.
     
  18. David.Blue

    David.Blue Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Prime timeline, alternate timeline, still another alternate timeline, the Mirror-verse...whatever. I want good stories and good characters.

    Having said that, it also depends on what one means by the prime timeline? Do you consider official novels to be canon--in which case a big chunk of the Federation was destroyed by the Borg, Andor seceded, but the Borg themselves are no more. Is STO?

    My concern is with the increasing trend towards wars, explosions, roller-coaster rides and the like. Not that wars cannot make for great stories! The Dominion War included some excellent episodes! But frankly stories about what happens when we're not fighting for our lives against vast armadas of terrifying starships has a lot more resonance with my life. Can't even remember the last time someone succeeded to destroying a planet.
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Novels aren't canon. Period. Perhaps you meant "part of your personal continuity"?
     
  20. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    I wouldn't want the novels to be canon. Destiny trilogy took it way too far.