Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by bbjeg, Sep 6, 2013.

?

Do fans want the prime timeline back?

  1. I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back.

    56.0%
  2. I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back.

    16.4%
  3. I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back.

    11.1%
  4. I don't care, just give me Trek!

    14.6%
  5. I don't know.

    1.9%
  1. wulfio

    wulfio Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Actually, I'm not transposing anything. If you read the discussion, you would understand that people are saying a cerebral trek flick could never, and would never be successful in this era. And that the contemporary audience doesn't have the ability to appreciate a cerebral trek flick in the 2010's. Basically that the trek films are as they are, because they could not be anything else.

    And then you would also understand that my argument is if it's done well, you can absolutely make a cerebral, slower paced film, and it be successful.

    This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with star trek tng or nutrek. It's about the conceptual ideas of what a film is allowed to be in this era vs. era's past, and how mediums affect the finished product.
     
  2. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Gene's office
    Nobody, exactly. We agree on that.

    Berman got hired to produce and story four Trek films back in the day. He won't have that opportunity again, because people have moved on from the sort of entertainment he can make. Which means that anybody who today made the same artistic choices he would, would yield similar results of non-success.

    Where we might have agreement is that more than one style might work in each era. But I never said that only one style could work at each given time. I never said it was necessary for the films in the present era to be the very nuTrek films we've gotten (successful though they are). Never said that. Other films made today might have been reasonably successful, too. All I said is that change is inevitable, and that what worked decades ago won't work today.

    No, if you think I said that (whatever "cerebral" means), you're putting words in my mouth.
     
  3. wulfio

    wulfio Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I'm conceptualizing here, nothing to do with specific names or properties, you can't get side tracked on examples. They're used to highlight my point since regular adjectives aren't working.

    Seems we agree mostly.

    Someone said contemporary trek couldn't be slow paced and cerebral, and that it had to be like Abrams trek.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I think it actually was necessary for Star Trek (2009) to be exactly the film we got. It needed to be brash and bold with larger-than-life characters. It needed to be those things. It needed to be accessible to general audiences. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, Star Trek was a tarnished brand with no real future when Abrams pulled it out of mothballs.

    It had to escape the "perfect humans sitting around a table talking gibberish to solve a problem" stigma the franchise had gained during the Berman years.
     
  5. wulfio

    wulfio Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    So you're saying people are too stupid to enjoy a movie that makes them think?
     
  6. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Gene's office
    I never said that specifically that.

    That may be, but reasoning that out was a step further than I actually went, is what I'm saying. I did say that there was a sweet spot. Clearly, nuTrek was aiming for that. Whether they hit it is, well, up for discussion I suppose.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    One, I don't have the same negative feelings towards the Abrams films that you do. Two, Star Trek was never this incredibly intelligent franchise you seem to think it is. Many of us starting watching before we started going to school. It can't be that intelligent if pre-schoolers can grasp much of it. TNG premiered when I was sixteen. Once again, it didn't throw anything at me I couldn't understand. What Star Trek gave me was a life long love of Science Fiction. When I revisit Star Trek, I revisit it to see those big brash characters I grew up with.

    Star Trek: The Motion Picture is my favorite of the Star Trek movies. Do I think that general audiences would be satisfied with a similar film today? No. Why would I? General audiences weren't satisfied it thirty-five years ago.

    Not everything work for everyone. But disparaging a film because it doesn't live up to your personal standards is non-sense. There's lots of stuff out there to watch, simply find something more to your taste.
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Gene's office
    Avatar probably made a lot of people think.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    It made more than a billion dollars and is an incredibly simple story. It made me think two things: "how long is this thing?" and "what is the big deal?" It was primarily Dances with Wolves in space. I don't think it was anymore intelligent than the Abrams films. Just slower and more plodding.

    But a heck of a lot of people love those films. Which is great. I don't have a need to go and criticize those films non-stop because they don't work for me. This is probably the first time I've even thought about Avatar since I commented on the film after seeing it several years ago.
     
  10. VST

    VST Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2014
    Location:
    Earth Spacedock
    This really really isn't about that at all. It's about pure money making mathematics.

    No studio in this day and age would allow Berman/Braga to make an Insurrection or a Generations (probably not even a Nemesis given how that tried to be a generic action flick and gained the lowest Trek movie coin ever). We just don't live in that world anymore. The studio ultimately gets the say. If Abrams had come in and said 'okay, I want to make The Conscience of the King into a two hour movie', they'd have laughed, slapped him upside the head, and told him to add some space battles, action heroics & explosions or 'we're replacing you with Zack Snyder'.

    It's naive to think we live in a world where artistic freedom outweighs profit margins, especially in such a lucrative franchise such as Star Trek.
     
  11. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Location:
    Oxford, PA
    So, I'm curious: What do people mean when they say they want something more "cerebral"? Something more like "The Cage"? Or TMP? Or TNG? Or DS9?

    Are we talking more hard science? More politics? More "utopian" inspiration or more moral ambiguity? Deeper, more complicated characterization or chewier time-travel paradoxes? Morality plays? Thinly-disguised allegories about current events?

    I'm not being facetious here, but I suspect we're talking past each other to some degree, and that if you asked ten different fans what "cerebral" meant to them, you would get at least eight different answers . . ..
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    It reminded me of a Stargate SG-1 episode only the humans being bigger dicks and there not being a diplomatic solution in the end.
     
  13. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Gene's office
    It occurs to me that one of the oft-repeated legends about "The Cage" is that it was rejected for being "too cerebral". From Wiki's article on "The Cage":

    Maybe that's how this word is getting injected into the conversation about Star Trek. :shrug:
     
  14. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Location:
    Star Trekkin Across the universe.
    I read somewhere that it actually had to do with "The Cage" being too expensive and not wanting to pay the amount needed to make it per episode.
     
  15. VST

    VST Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2014
    Location:
    Earth Spacedock
    You're probably right about the many different answers to that one, because Trek seems to be different things to different people.

    Watching TOS lately has made me see how it's one big myth that Trek was always a very scientific, careful, issue-heavy show. Originally it was a big, colourful romp that just happened to have shows that touched on 'ideas'. It's only TNG that brought in more of the science & established technobabble, and I sense quite a lot of people think Trek 'cerebral' in those terms. DS9 eschewed a great deal of that and flew whereas VOY drowned in it, so it applies in different ways.

    Personally the best Trek is a show that's telling a compelling character story, because that'll always leave you with an issue to contemplate alongside.
     
  16. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Location:
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    Spock's Brain

    Comedy, the general audience seemed to like TVH the most of all the films, and SB could be just as good or better. Keep the fun, don't go down the rabbit hole of 'Cerebral'. This show had the occasional thoughtful episode, so did the Bionic Man and Happy Days, but it was mostly a fun space opera.

    Corruption from absolute power

    Kirk whinnies and prances like a horse

    Fans aghast

    Star Trek
     
  17. drt

    drt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Anymore, I consider the "too cerebral" to be guru-era Rodenberry trying to defend why his initial concept wasn't heralded as pure genius.

    As there isn't a huge amount of difference in the level of action - I think one could argue there was even more in "The Cage" - the most notable difference was probably in the timing of WNMHGB having the fight be the episode's climax. And I'd say the "cerebral" science-fiction food-for-thought in both was about equal as well...
     
  18. wulfio

    wulfio Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2014
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Now I loved avatar. It was total eye candy and an amazing 3D experience. But the only thing it could possibly make you think of is how many movies this ripped off.

    Full Definition of CEREBRAL

    1
    a : of or relating to the brain or the intellect
    b : of, relating to, affecting, or being the cerebrum

    2
    a : appealing to intellectual appreciation <cerebral drama>
    b : primarily intellectual in nature <a cerebral society>
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Being a novelist and editor, I'm sure Greg Cox is well aware of the definition of cerebral. What he is trying to narrow down is what exactly is it that fans are wanting. And he is correct, if you asked ten fans, you would get eight different answers.
     
  20. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Location:
    Gov Kodos on Mohammed's Radio, WZVN Boston
    At least that many.