Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by bbjeg, Sep 6, 2013.

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Do fans want the prime timeline back?

  1. I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back.

    56.0%
  2. I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back.

    16.4%
  3. I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back.

    11.1%
  4. I don't care, just give me Trek!

    14.6%
  5. I don't know.

    1.9%
  1. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's was Sulu, not Kirk.

    And it was about the events in the timeframe of The Undiscovered Country, were both the Enterprise and the Excelsior were acting against official Starfleet orders anyways.

    And the whole Flashback episode should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
     
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    In that case, why don't you go make us a nice list of all the episodes and movies that count in this discussion.
     
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Judging from your signature, you seem to have the time to do so. I don't.
     
  4. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    @King Daniel &c. The premise of the "Flashback" episode in Voyager is a virus hiding itself inside a series of fake "memory engrams" created to conceal its existence from its host. IIRC it turned out there was no record of the mission Tuvok "remembers" because the memory is false, not because Sulu actually falsified his logs.

    So, Janeway's charming speech about the old days notwithstanding -- and it is telling that she thought that would be a plausible explanation -- the "memory" involved is probably not the counterexample you were looking for. A better one might be Captain Sulu lying to Starfleet in Undiscovered Country when he's asked to disclose the whereabouts of Enterprise. (We've discussed in various places that some of the writing flaws in the BadRobot films are really just exaggerated versions of tropes the movies had already used.)

    Also, it'd be a treat if you could knock it off with the petulant snark.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  5. Kelthaz

    Kelthaz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps any episodes and movies relating to the character in question? You made a mistake and thought that Janeway was talking about Kirk; admit it and move on.
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    While the log entry was Sulu's on Excelsior, Janeway's reply to Kim's astonished "You mean he falsified his logs?" makes it pretty clear Kirk was known for that kind of thing too.
     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    She was painting all 23rd Century captains with a broad brush.
     
  8. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    In another episode (I think) Janeway stated Kirk and his fellow cowboys would all be drummed outta Starfleet in her time, because "Times were different"
     
  9. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    I just watched TNG: Birthright were Worf lies to Picard about there being survivors of the Khitomer Massacre. How dare he conceal the truth! He's a Starfleet officer!
     
  10. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not sure exactly which examples you're talking about, but I don't remember any time when Spock disobeyed orders and then tried to hide it after the fact to avoid taking responsibility. Two other things that are relevant here: Spock eventually becomes a Captain, but is never shown as having a command of his own, and in regards to 'Amok Time', he was under the influence of a seriously mind altering biological process. You might as well hold everyone responsible for their responses to the Psi 2000 virus...

    Allowing Cochrane to live in peace is hardly the same as a captain trying to sweep his own flouting of all the rules under the rug.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    It's never going to be an exact parallel. Your insistence that it must be casts doubts on your desire to have an honest discussion.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic was falsifying reports. My examples show that Kirk did that on a couple of occasions. But now they don't count because his heart was in the right place.

    Spock falsified orders in "Amok Time" and Kirk then compounded that disobeying Komack's orders by going to Vulcan. By the end of the episode Komack gives the okay to proceed to Vulcan, but the Enterprise is already there. Did Kirk fess up to that?

    Spock was in Command of the Enterprise at the beginning of TWOK. Yes it was a training vessel, but he was the Captain.
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We also know that Riker falsified reports and lied to a board of inquiry and didn't fess up to it until years later when he got caught. (See: The Pegasus). :lol:

    It comes down to some liking a particular version of Trek and excusing their flaws but trying to nail Abrams films for the same flaws. I wish some would simply admit it's about the Messenger and not the flaws themselves. :techman:
     
  13. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Oh, that's small potatoes compared to Spock hijacking the Enterprise in "The Menagerie." And let's not forget him using a nerve pinch on some poor security guy in order to take an unauthorized spacewalk in TMP, in which he had a secret agenda to make contact with V'Ger for pretty much the entire movie . . .
     
  14. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

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    Right here buddy.
    ^ You beat me to "The Menagerie."
     
  15. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Am I the only one who sees a difference between:

    a) doing something, being honest about it and accepting the consequences

    and

    b) doing something and lying about it to avoid the consequences

    ?
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know? Ask Will Riker?
     
  17. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    The Conscience of the King contains some dodgy moves by Kirk. He calls in a favor to strand the Karidian Company so he can transport them. He also alter his ship's course to accommodate them. He romances Karidian's daughter. All part of his plan to expose Karidian as Kodos.

    Of course earlier in the episode he chastises Leighton for doing the same thing.

    Hmmmm, what did he enter in his log? Would he have mentioned Leighton's lie?
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!" - Carol Marcus, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

    "I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

    "The word ...is no. I am therefore going anyway." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

    "As you wish. ...The charges and specifications are. Conspiracy. Assault on Federation Officers. Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise. Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior, Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise. And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander. ...Admiral Kirk, how do you plead?" - Federation President, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

    "If you continue to complain, from deeper in your canon, there are things even more unpleasant". - Me, with special assist from The Cage :guffaw:
     
  19. grendelsbayne

    grendelsbayne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You're wrong. The topic I was speaking of was not falsifying reports, it was Kirk's moral integrity.

    I don't know. Do you know that he lied to Starfleet about it in his official report?

    This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not Kirk breaking the rules, but Kirk considering himself entirely above the rules. Which is, incidentally, exactly what Pike says about him in ID, as well...
     
  20. Rayna

    Rayna Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Well put! I myself am 19 and would have never watched TOS unless Trek had been introduced to me through the Abrams movies. Now, I far prefer TOS, but I am grateful that my generation was successfully introduced to Trek. I think a new incarnation of the Prime timeline would do just as well, especially for people who are new to the series like I was.