Did we know about the Borg sooner?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Pawleygirl, Nov 4, 2012.

  1. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Or then the Borg of ST:FC already sent out all sorts of messages, but those were of a fairly slow-moving type (or even "time capsule" type immobile messages, to be discovered later) and failed in the task of summoning immediate help from the 21st century Collective... But did eventually get the information to the 24th century Collective, without the help of the 22nd century interlude.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  2. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Moments before the temporal vortex opens up over Earth...

    Borg Queen: Launch sphere. Set course for 2063 and destroy the Phoenix, Earth's first warp ship, before the Enterprise follows us in

    Every drone in the galaxy (including seven): Acknowledged...

    ;)
     
  3. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Remember in VOY 'Relativity' 7 of 9 has knowledge of 2 different scenarios for the same time travel incursion. She states that the Borg traveled back to 2063 to stop Cochram from breaking the warp barrier, and to assimilate earth. She also states the Borg succeeded. Now we the audience and the crew of the ENT-E saw this when the Borg Sphere travelled through the temporal wake. We saw the Borg rewrite history in their own image. In this timeline the Borg traveled back 310 years and literally changed history in front of our eyes and the ENT-E crews eyes with respect to the 24th century.

    HOWEVER 7 of 9 then follows up her admission of the Borg succeeding in their goal. With testimony to their subsequent failure to assimilate earth and stop Cochram due to the intervention of the ENT-E to restore history to as close as it could be to what the Federation has recorded.

    I've posted this before so I'll say it again. How can 7 of 9 know about both of these events? It can't be a pogo paradox/casualty loop/ predestination paradox that the Borg would both succeed and fail in their goal. Because we saw it. The Borg succeeded in assimilating Earth. The ENT-E still existing to stop them was a stroke of luck because being a Federation starship it couldn't exist in a reality where the Fed never existed. The Borg trying to create a transmitter to contact the Borg is the Delta Quad. means they weren't successful in getting their situation of presence know to 21st century Borg.

    This is a scenario where the writers on VOY made a mistake. The Borg couldn't have both succeeded and failed and yet somehow it all be a paradox that it happened. I suspect the VOY writers thought it would be clever to try and pass this off. Hence the time police guy's line to 7 of 9 that in a way the Fed owes it's existence to the Borg. No it doesn't. The Fed owes it's continued but varied existence to the ENT-E crew for restoring history. Just like the people TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY eras owe their continued but varied existence to Kirk and co. for bringing the whales from 20th century Earth to the future to stop the whale probe from destroying Earth.

    The events of First Contact should technically push Enterprise in to an alternate reality. With the Borg Drones left over in the artic region of Earth and all. Make sense really, the events of FC creating an alternate timeline that is subtly different but close enough to the original timeline where the first contact with the Borg was 'Q Who' and not ENT's 'Regeneration'.
     
  4. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Sorry double post
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  5. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Wait, wasn't Seven being tested by Ducane on her knowledge of temporal whatevers when she spoke of both First Contact timelines? In that case, she probably got the complete picture from the USS Relativity's computers. They'd trained her before sending her back in time.

    Prior to "Relativity", Seven said only that "the Borg were present during those events" (referring to First Contact) in "Year of Hell" - something implying first-hand info (i.e. from the message sent by the "Regeneration" survivors) rather than some collective-wide Spacebook update posted by the queen seconds before plunging into the time vortex. After all, someone like Seven wouldn't say the Borg WERE present if the last she knew was a plan to maybe hopefully if successful perhaps alter history.
     
  6. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Who says El-Auria was in Federation space?

    According to the novelization and an onscreen graphic, one of the ships bringing El-Aurian refugees to Earth was the SS Robert Fox (named for an ambassador featured in TOS), so it and the SS Lakul were perhaps Federation ships, not El-Aurian, but the Borg may have attacked and scattered Guinan's people many decades earlier, and a small group of survivors was finally making its way to a planet Guinan had visited before.
     
  7. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Commodore Commodore

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    That's what I've been saying all along! Enterprise being set in an alternate timeline because of what happened in First Contact would be a logical way to explain away all the discrepancies between Enterprise and TOS/TNG.

    I'd even go a step further and say that Star Trek XI is a continuation of the alternate timeline that Enterprise happened in. This would be the only way I can think of to explain the differences to the original timeline in that movie. The differences that were not caused by Nero.
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    But then Enterprise becomes utterly pointless as a prequel! Star Trek XI was intended to be a reboot/alternate reality thing, but Enterprise was always supposed to be a prequel to TOS/TNG and the rest.

    What's the point of showing the start of the Coalition/Federation of Planets in "Demons"/"Terra Prime" if it's not THE Federation, but some alternate? Why explain the Klingon foreheads changing if that's not setting up the Klingons of The Original Series? Why make a huge fuss and intergalactic incident over the first Vulcan/human hybrid if not to forshadow Spock?
     
  9. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

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    It was just as entertaining whether it was showing the history of TOS, the history of JJ's Trek, or the history of an altogether different universe that might play out quite differently by the time the 23rd century rolled around. The nice thing about taking that route (if the writers had actually planned it that way -- I advocated this idea back when Enterprise first started airing) is that it gives you the same toys to play with, but there's still suspense because everything could play out differently.
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The stand alone episodes? Yeah, continuity doesn't really matter. But the ones that deal with Trek mythology or are direct prequels of course need to tie into the other series' in order to be effective.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    How do we explain the discrepancies between TOS and TOS? Is each episode a different reality? How about Encounter at Farpoint which claims Data graduated from the Academy as part of the class of '78, another alternate timeline?


    It's already both. :p
     
  12. The Borg Queen

    The Borg Queen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Does it matter?
    I think Gene was just making it up as he went along with no realisation of the Universe as a whole.
     
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Yes, but we're talking "in universe". Conflict=new reality seems to be the rule.

    Yes, Gene made some stuff up as he went along. He also changed stuff as he went along, too. He even developed some backstory before filming started!!!! :eek:
     
  14. Gil T.Azell

    Gil T.Azell Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In TBBW Admiral J. P. Hanson: said " Truth is we've known they were coming for a long time"
    That leads me to think they knew even before events that took place in "The Neutral Zone"
     
  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Even though they use different spellings I've wondered if there was a connection between Hanson and the Hansens.
     
  16. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

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    I always wished they had spelled it the same. No other reference necessary, but just have that there as a possible clue that Hanson sent his xeno-biologist son and his family out on a mission to research the Borg and never heard from them again.
     
  17. Jerikka Dawn

    Jerikka Dawn Commander Red Shirt

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    He actually said "for over a year" which coincides almost exactly with Q Who (1228 stardate units, assuming 1000=year)
     
  18. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    No.

    Oh God no.

    Why does anyone with a remotely similar name HAVE TO BE related to each other? There are BILLIONS of people, maybe TRILLIONS of people across the Federation. Chances are there are going to be lots of them named Hansen or Hanson or something like that.

    Enough with the small universe where everyone knows everyone else. It's bad enough in Star Wars where they take each and every person who was in the pod race audience and give them a complete backstory, name and everything. Let's not also do it for trek.
     
  19. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Might not have been El Auria. Let's not forget the USS Tombaugh...
     
  20. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Commodore Commodore

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    Hanson/Hansen is not exactly a rare name, there would be no reason for them to be related at all.