Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by The Overlord, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    Yes, exactly.
     
  2. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Maybe, but they hardly ever explored any of this with Harry and he ended up being Mr. generic guy. Harry Kim just came off as a miserable loser or some emotionally stunted sap to really gain the audience's respect and most of the rest of the time he was just a generic guy. Harry Kim should have had a bad ass moment where he saved the ship, got a promotion and became more confident, not doing that made the character rather pointless.
     
  3. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    Okay if you want to equate Tom's Bad Boyness with the other Maquis on board he was Bad. A Very Naughty Boy. Just like those other very naughty Maquis who showed what underground rebels they were by being lazy and not wanting to run laps. Such grit!
     
  4. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    I disagree.
    I don't think doing any of that would have fixed a character written with no personality. Personality traits in characters are what make them stand out. We've seen Harry save the ship(Timeless), his friends(Time & Again, The Chute, Deadlock, etc.) and gain confidence(The Decease) but it didn't change the character because his personality remained the same. He never seemed to care. Too be the person you're looking for him to he'd have to be more aggressive, an over achiever. His action would have to matter to him, they didn't. IMO Harry didn't deserve a promotion because he never went above and beyond to earn it. You never saw him desire to want to do anything. That's why Harry was bland.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
  5. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    That's not why Tom was a bad boy.
    He was bad because he was a traitor.
    There's no greater offence than selling out your own people/country. What made it worse was the was the son of a high ranking, well respected Admiral
    When things got to tough for him in Starfleet he quit but he didn't just quit, he turned his back on the Federation by doing so. He joined the Maquis. After he joined the Maquis, he turned on them and sold them out to Starfleet.
    He couldn't be trusted and wasn't welcomed by either side.
    He was a traitor to his father and to his "country", he was also a traitor to the terrorist/freedom fighters he joined.
    People who are traitors to the government/country normally don't get let out of prison to redeem themselves. They're usually are up for execution.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2012
  6. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Great Britain
    They replaced the only well developed character on the show with the subsequent only well developed character on the show.

    I'd say the quality remained exactly the same.
     
  7. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    How was Kes well developed?
    Even the writing staff themselves admitted they messed up on her development.
     
  8. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Great Britain
    Alright, "well developed" was probably pushing it but by Voyager standards she was the best character on the ship.

    Although I'd also class Neelix as being better developed than most of the cast so my word should be taken with a lorry of salt.
     
  9. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    And yet he has such a baby face. Especially in last few seasons when he got a bit fat.
     
  10. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Honestly, I think every other show Tom would have tried to break someone out of the brig then Sisko would have pretended to try to stop him but really turned the other way until the person escaped then yelled at him.

    I'm glad Harry didn't have some sort of zany personality trait. Harry was the show's straight man, and crazy characters don't work as well without a normal person standing next to them.
     
  11. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Location:
    The Digital Garden
    No way.
    Sisko gave several speeches on what type of person it takes to wear a Starfleet uniform, the honor it takes and what it means to be a Starfleet Officer. Tom didn't have those traits. It would have been a serious insult to Sisko having a traitor like Tom on his team and wearing a Starfleet uniform. We saw how Sisko felt about Eddington being a traitor. He wouldn't have looked the other way at Tom's infractions, he would have been looking for ANY excuse to get him off his station.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Didn't Sisko marry a Maquis traitor and put a baby inside her?
     
  13. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2011
    Lets not forget his First Officer was a former Bajoran terrorist who supported any and all violence directed toward the Cardassians. Sisko and Janeway kept strange company haha
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Naaah... Sisko isn't much younger than O'Brien, he probably fought in some of the Federation/Cardassian scuffles of the late 2350s too.
     
  15. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    Sisko fell into the traitor pit himself when he chose the visions of B'hala over his Starfleet orders, choosing to warn (or order, depending on how religious you were) Bajor to not pursue Federation membership though getting them up to scratch to become members was the the mandate he was given when he took his post. An Admiral even threatens to remove his Starfleet commission because of this.
     
  16. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2001
    Location:
    Lynx Empire
    Kes was as well developed as any other main character on the show.

    As for the "writing" staff, well they are veeeeeeeery reliable, aren't they. :thumbdown:
     
  17. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    I agree, they developed her as the childlike ingenue quite well. I think she was better developed than Tom.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2000
    Location:
    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    She probably just went to the gym more.
     
  19. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Kes was more interesting because she was more different from everyone else. At the beginning Chakotay's only role was to tell Maquis not to rebel, at the end his only role was to tell Janeway when she was going zany. His only development was stereotypical mysticism.

    Kes started out as an innocent, but what if she struggled to maintain that innocence as she started to gain more and more telekinetic power? That's a missed opportunity there.

    Story of Voyager character development, I guess. The only characters who really were used to their full potential were Janeway, Doctor and Seven.

    And I suppose Neelix, since he had no potential.
     
  20. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    That's not saying much, considering that some of the characters on the show, Harry Kim and Chakotay in particular are some of the least developed characters in Star Trek history.

    Again the problem with Kes is are few episodes about what makes her tick, rather then episodes where things happen to her and how she reacts to these things. There was less of character study with her then other Star Trek characters. This would have easy to remedy, but the writers seemed to have no interest in doing so, so Kes had the potential to be a great character, but the writers failed to follow through. She certainly a better character then Harry Kim or Chakotay.

    I think this video has a good explanation on how Kes could have been used:

    http://blip.tv/sf-debris-opinionated-reviews/a-look-at-kes-5381557
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2012