Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, but if their going to be doing morally questionable things can they at least do so consistently otherwise it just gets confusing.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I have to say that Bender from Futurama best sums up my feelings towards the Ba'ku:

    Does it suck for the Ba'ku? Yes. But instead of expelling the S'ona in the first place they maybe could have come up with a way to integrate their need for exploration into their society. Maybe be a little more forward looking so they could defend their paradise when someone inevitably stumbled upon it.
     
  3. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except we don't really know much about how the split happened except that the Son'a tried to take over they and then they were exiled.

    Heck even the how could the Son'a lose to luddites argument only works if you believe that the Son'a who were apart of said luddite village some how got access to advanced technology that their parents who ran the colony didn't like having around.
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The reason no one ever bothered to ask the Baku to move is quite simple. If they say yes, movie's over. If they say no, they look like first class jerks by putting their immortality above the welfare of billions. As it is, they're not very sympathetic to start with. Pretty much everyone involved in this movie makes an ass of themselves in one way or another. Excellent writing.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    It's a real shame that Insurrection was Michael Piller's Trek swan-song. :(
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Much of the movie really doesn't make sense where the S'ona/Ba'ku relationship is involved.
     
  7. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Another reason why I liked the original idea, though weirdly in that version the Romulans are a lot nicer to the natives than the federation is in the finished product. They're at least will to compensate the natives its just that they'll all die if they leave the planet in that version and at least its a slightly more justifiable move seeing as Federation and Romulan medical technology breaks down without the magufin. In this film it just sounds like a freaking vanity item they're trying to get especially after Picard's little speech to Soran about mortality being a good thing and who you shouldn't blow up poor innocent planets to be immortal or something.
     
  8. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Like the fact that the Son'a could have just out right conquered the planet just a few decades after being exiled and let the natural particle effect de-age them over time without having to build a complex collector thing, or try to cut corners bureaucratically to the point that his plan is a house of cards that falls apart as soon as one starship crew comes along and having to rush things.
     
  9. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I guess the moral of the story is that the luddite lifestyle is indefensible in the face of modern society, and that the only certain way to secure your claim on your own home is with a fuck ton of firepower.

    Probably not the moral that the writers intended, but it seems to be what we're left with.
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Meh, the Ba'ku should have turned into scary energy beings and killed Ru'afo and Dougherty Raiders of the Lost Ark style.

    Then the moral would have been never assume a seemingly primitive society that seems to know more than they should is a primitive society otherwise you get face melted.

    Plus it would have restored the scariness of space from TOS that TNG, DS9, and VOY seemed to like doing away with.

    And the movie would have probably been way more interesting.
     
  11. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ A little like "Errand of Mercy" on the big screen.

    Sure, I could have gone for that.
     
  12. OneBuckFilms

    OneBuckFilms Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The thing is with this argument, is your confusing an exile with a theft.

    The Son'a knew the rules of the society in which they lived. If you note the dialog, you'll see that it was an attempted coup, somewhat different to a legitimate opposition or difference of viewpoint.

    When there is an argument, at some point, one side wins.

    In the end, the parents set the rules of the house.
     
  13. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I tend to think the Federation could use a kick in the butt every once in a while to remind them they aren't the biggest fish in the universe especially seeing as the last time they thought they were the biggest thing since sliced bread Q introduced them to the Borg.
     
  14. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Well in the UK

    Kidnapping is an offence created by judges in the seventeenth century. The current definition is that kidnapping is an attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another, by force or fraud, without the consent of the person taken or carried away, and without lawful excuse.

    http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/areas/kidnapping.htm

    So lets break it down

    attack on or infringement of personal liberty, consisting of the taking or carrying away of one person by another

    They were intending to carry the Ba'ku away.

    by force or fraud

    They were going to use a holoship to make them think they were still on their planet, sounds like fraud to me.

    without the consent of the person taken or carried away

    The Ba'ku weren't asked if they minded being moved

    and without lawful excuse

    Whist the planet might be within Federation space, it was settled before the Federation was founded and the Ba'ku weren't informed so they could seek redress through legal means.

    Looks like the criteria has been meet.

    And you don't need the ransom part, if you grab someone of the streets and move them 10 miles from that location and let them you go, you are still guilty of kidnapping. As that person did not give you consent to be moved.
     
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    well, the holoship was a stupid plan, like many parts of the movie. I don't really want to be put in the position of defending it as a good idea.

    As I've written before in these threads, the Son'a screwed themselves by trying to be TOO clever and hiding the nature of their relationship with the Baku.

    Had they approached Dougherty with the truth, the Federation could have openly asked the Baku to leave, either using the argument that it's a Federation planet, OR have the Son'a come in and remove the Baku themselves since the Federation would have regarded it as an "internal conflict."

    Bottom line: the Baku-Son'a "twist" was a poorly thought out one that added MORE problems(how did the Baku win? Why didn't the Son'a return decades later and conquer? etc.) to an already deeply flawed story.
     
  16. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not to mention the Federation going from extremely open society that practically treat the Prime Directive like religious dogma to tossing the PD out the window and make major policy decisions in secret (Ru'afo's rant and the secrecy of everything make it sound like nobody outside the council, Dougherty and his people, and the Son'a know what's is going on over there) and (given Dougherty's sharing the benefits of the mission with all the people of the federation line) are probably going to hoard the partials for themselves and the Son'a and tell the rest of the galaxy to suck it.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    At the time the Federation was also in the middle of a war the likes of which it had never before seen. As history will attest, war can radically change a government's priorities.
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No, the prime directive has always been shown to be highly variable. As seen "in-universe" it would appear to be changed and reinterpreted on a regular basis.

    In the episode Pen Pals, the Enterprise's command staff couldn't even agree among themselves as to what the prime directive actual meant.


    :)
     
  19. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    To borrow a quote from History.

    "Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

    So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When "somebody" signs off ... no. However, when a decision making body authorizes an action, it's much more likely.

    And by canon, does the Federation even have the equivalent of a separate body that can supersede decisions of the Council?

    :)