Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Godless Raven, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    1. The Prime Directive actually goes against your argument here. If you're invoking the PD then the Son'a should be able to handle the Baku themselves

    2. As I and others have repeatedly pointed out, there is ZERO on-screen evidence that the Son'a were going to betray the Federation. This keeps getting brought up, and let's just resolve it right here: what evidence from the movie do you have on this? The Son'a spent MONTHS following the Federation's lead on this, going along with a plan that they didn't even like, just to be cooperative. They ONLY turned against the Federation after Picard sabotaged the plan. Enough with the "the son'a were going to betray them!" nonsense. It's the SON'A WHO WERE BETRAYED!

    3. The Baku had been living on that planet for three centuries, never telling anyone else what they'd found. The perfectly logical conclusion from this is that they didn't care at all to bring this revolutionary resource to the rest of the galaxy, therefore it makes perfect sense to conclude that they are utterly selfish and self-centered.
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Question for those in favor of Picard's actions- if the Baku had bottled up the particles themselves (as opposed to settling on the planet they orbit), used them only to benefit themselves, and would not share them, would you still be sympathetic to their supposed plight?

    Because it seems to me that that's effectively what's going on here - the Baku have access to a technology that could be used to help others' suffering and will not share it.

    The "they were never asked to share it" argument is bollocks because even if they were never asked previously they certainly become aware of the situation during the events of the film. And if we're going to look at this from a moral standpoint, morally I think it's quite acceptable to offer to help suffering people rather than waiting for them to ask you.

    In short I believe this boils down to either weak writing or the Baku not being the type of people the Feds should necessarily be setting out to defend.
     
  3. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So Kirk should have invaded and conquered the Halkans to get the dilithium they didn't want to give the federation because they were pacifists is basically what you are saying.

    Because thats basically the same principal as its just the some more dirty hippies who don't want to share their awesome resource with the mighty federation don't deserve to keep it argument.

    And yet Kirk did not do this.

    Or heck lets look at Kodos the Executioner all he was doing was killing all those selfish people who didn't want to starve to death so the people he decided to let live would have food, so obviously needs of the many and all that jazz :rolleyes:
     
  4. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The question wasn't directed at me, but...

    I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat, which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS. The situation with Kodos was not analogous.

    Also, even if the Federation isn't willing to take it themselves, that's a FAR CRY from actually taking on the responsibility of DEFENDING these selfish hypocrites, which is what we see in the movie.
     
  5. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

    See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

    No it really wasn't.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, Kirk shouldn't have stolen dilithium from the Halkans. But what happens when a hostile power comes knocking on their door? Is it Kirk's duty to defend them at that point? Is it realistic to expect the Federation to devote resources to protecting a planet that will grant them nothing in return?

    IIRC, the Kodos situation involved the planet being hit by a famine and there not being enough food to keep everyone alive. Kodos hence opted to eliminate X% of the population so that there would be enough food for everyone else. Hardly an approach that anyone will commend him for, but I don't see any good options here.
     
  7. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You can keep denying that the situation was not an issue of a valuable resource during a time of war, but it's not the case.

    Contrast what Sisko did in "in the pale moonlight," where his actions cost millions of Romulan lives to win the war, with the moral absurdities of "Insurrection," where Picard refuses to MOVE 600 people to help win the war.


    At any rate, as has been shown in this thread, the Baku are doomed either way. If it's not a Federation planet, then the PD means the Son'a remove the Baku any way, so I don't really see what you're arguing here?:confused:


    whether the Federation removes the Baku themselves and gets the particles, OR they get them after the Son'a do it, it's an academic distinction.
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It really comes down to the fact that the script says they're the good guys and the Baku are the innocent victims. As for the plot not making sense in some places, and making the so called good guys look bad in others.... kinda like the Wizard of Oz... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. And some people seem to buy that.
     
  9. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    So you have a planet that's within Federation space but not a member of the Federation. You have a race which isn't part of the Federation but want's to travel to that planet, would it not be polite to ask the Federation permission to traverse their space? The Federation of course would ask why to you want to go there, and perhaps Federation invovlment started there.
     
  10. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    sure, but if the Son'a tell them the truth, then the Federation's going to decide that it's a PD issue, and an internal conflict between the Son'a and the Baku.(Picard HIMSELF calls it a "blood feud.") There response SHOULD BE "do whatever you want, not our problem, we'll be happy to keep this secret between us and we'll buy your particles that you get from this."

    So either the Son'a are incredibly stupid for not just telling the Federation the truth, OR WE'RE MEANT TO THINK IT'S REGARDED AS A FEDERATION PLANET. Otherwise, the Son'a-UFP partnership makes no sense.


    Again, the movie's premise is just unsalvageable. At least it is when you throw in the Son'a-Baku relationship. The Baku, as written, are a doomed society either way UNLESS the Federation is willing to just permanently defend them in violation of the PD for no real reason, while getting NOTHING from the Baku.:lol:
     
  11. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    I never said they had to tell the Federation the truth, but if they did ask the Federation permission to traverse their space, and didn't convince starfleet as to the reason why, I would have sent a ship to investigate the region myself. The Son'a where after all suspected to be supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion.

    For all the Federation knew is that the resources to create white could be found on this planet. It would have been prudent for starfleet to survey the region.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It is the case because your precious particles had f@#k all to do with ending the war or any affect on the war for that matter.

    Seriously in all of the episodes of DS9 during the Dominion War just when exactly has anything that needed those magic particles come up.

    Hell during the freaking movie they only mentioned living longer as an effect they never mentioned any military benefits, and we don't even know if the war was still going on at that point.
     
  13. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    er, I guess I don't understand your point. So the Federation finds out what they're doing.


    OK, so what? It still either comes down to a PD issue or it's Federation territory. Either way, how does it affect things if the Federation investigates?:confused:
     
  14. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    actually, Ru'afo mentions it to Dougherty, talking about how every major power has been challenging the Federation, implying a strategic advantage through the particles. And of course DS9 didn't bring up the particles, PICARD TURNED THE SON'A INTO AN ENEMY!:lol: Plus, it was a different show, so why would DS9 bring up the TNG movie franchise?


    at any rate, it still doesn't matter. The Baku lose either way.
     
  15. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Probably not but he would do it anyway because it's James T. Kirk were talking about he does the right thing not the politically convenient thing.

    How about not committing mass murder thats a good option.


    So immortality obsessed man child is the entire reason for that argument. yeah lets go with that guy instead of onscreen evidence that the particles don't really amount to much in the grad scheme of things.
     
  16. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    So the Son'a don't ask for the Federation for permission to traverse their space and enter Federation space, Starfleet would no doubt send a ship to intercept the Son'a vessel to ask what they are doing. So now not only are they suspected of supplying your enemy during a time of war, they are invading your space. Whilst the Federation might not be as territorial in defending it's borders as say the Romulan's. In a time of war your are going to be more aware/circumspect about border incursions.
     
  17. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Putting aside the doubled lifespans, if just normal exposure can magically heal Geordi's eyes the concentrated stuff's potential would be extraordinary. When you probably have hundreds of hospitals across dozens of planets and bases full of casualties from the war, that seems like a pertinent need.
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Considering its doubled lifespans instead of immortality it actually sounds like a a watered down version of the radiation is the end result and seeing as the all natural immortality granting version can't heal wounds the watered down sounding version that will only double a lifespan probably wouldn't either.

    Besides most casualties in the war suffered from the untreatabl;e condition known as death in all its varied forms like death from being blow up when the ships is destroyed, or death from exploding console and/or (surprisingly) rock filled walls, or death by vaporization, or death by whatever the hell those automatic energy weapons the Jem'Hadar use are, or ect.

    So not seeing how it helps and no most of the battles shown were space battles so that probably wasn't the minority of combat.
     
  19. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Leaving aside the absurd notion that most casualties in space battles = death, most of the battles shown, doesn't mean most of the battles that happened. When the Jem'Hadar are attacking and occupying entire worlds like Betazed, that's where most of your casualties are going to come from. So a series of AR-558, the Ship and Nor the Battle to the Strong scenarios. And casualties in those battles did not instantly equal death.

    Normal, prolonged exposure heals your wounds and makes you immortal. The whole point of the collector was to collect the radiation particles for concentrated use. So I'm inclined to think they'd be more effective than the natural stuff and the only reason people wouldn't be immortal is because they aren't permanently exposed to the stuff.
     
  20. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They do when the most comon thing shown is ships exploding.

    Except I don't recall that many planetary invasions mentioned during DS9.

    Most of the people there died quickly

    Not part of the war.

    Not only not part of the war, but not even against the Dominion

    Um, in the only one of those that was actually during the Dominion War they did kind of instantly die when shot except for Nog.

    It does not or else Anij wouldn,t have been dying after the fricken cave in.

    Considering healing the injuried was never mentioned and would go against what was shown on screen I tend to disagree.
     

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