Did Chang expect the Kronos One to survive in combat?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Xerxes1979, Feb 3, 2014.

  1. Xerxes1979

    Xerxes1979 Captain Captain

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    Was Kirk's surrender the expected course of action? Unshielded torpedo hits have a tendency to mess a ship up pretty bad.

    Dying in combat while honorable may not have served his larger goal of personally overseeing the peace process fully dissolve.

    Were they supposed to be low yield torpedoes that allowed the ship to recover if combat with the Enterprise followed?
     
  2. drt

    drt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I would think that Kirk surrendering was probably accounted for in the planning, but likely one of the lower probability outcomes.

    With regard to torpedo yield, in the original series photon torpedoes were regarded to be considerably more powereful, and firing one at a target that close was thought to be dangerous for even the firing ship (based on "Obsesion"), but from TWOK onwards, they really weren't any more effective than phasers (which were also more powerful in the original series, as shown in "Day of the Dove"), so it's hard to say if there really was any dialed down yield.

    I'd argue that it would have served Chang's interests just as well to destroy Kronos One outright, but that wouldn't have been much of a movie I guess.
     
  3. Xerxes1979

    Xerxes1979 Captain Captain

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    On second thought the plan was to probably to provoke the Enterprise and fight until crippled.

    It would be very un-Federation like to destroy an enemy target unless absolutely necessary. Also as a space speed queen for many decades the E was probably capable of disengaging from the fight.
     
  4. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think Chang was so concerned with his own survival so much as he was preserving the enmity between the Federation and the Klingon Empire.

    --Sran
     
  5. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The prototype Bird of Prey was around as well. The plan could have called for it to pick up the slack.
     
  6. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

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    BoP fires Kronos One knowing where to strike it to disable the gravity field (or perhaps someone inside the ship manually did that)

    The Enterprise had her shields down, and since we see Kronos One being attacked, she can raise her shields immediately giving her the upper hand on the Enterprise.

    Kirk still wondering WTF is going on whilst he is under strict orders to escort the Klingons as part of the peace mission would be in no frame of mind to put up a fight.
     
  7. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    Where exactly IS Chang during this attack? I always assumed he beamed aboard the BOP from the Enterprise transporter room after dinner, justified IMO by his speaking into the communicator moments before. He then beams back aboard Kronos One after the attack.

    Again, IMO, Chang knew Kirk was capable of defending Enterprise, and had written off Kronos One. His original plan was to eat popcorn on the bridge of the invisible BOP, and watch as Kirk blew KO to bits. Chang then flies off and enjoys ongoing hostilities between the Klingons and the Fed.
     
  8. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    and great thread!
     
  9. TLemun

    TLemun Cadet Newbie

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    Chang was on Kronos One. We see him threaten to blow the Enterprise out of the stars directly after the attack. The Chancellor would have noticed if Chang was suddenly missing anyway.

    I think the plan was for Kronos One to destroy Enterprise and get a war started right then and there. Maybe K1 would have gone down as well but it would have been a glorious battle worthy of song. :klingon:
     
  10. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Gorkon said "Find Chang", so perhaps he knew he was not necessarily on Kronos One. He surely expected the presence of at least one cloaked ship as escort, but he didn't expect this cloaked ship would attack his own.

    But of course, there's also the possibility that Chang was on Kronos One, but hidden in a good place to avoid to be injuried by the torpedoes or the two killers.

    Yeah, Kirk avoided the war by surrendering. If Kirk had instead chosen the confrontation, Chang would have achieved his goal and been ready to win or die in a glorious battle.
     
  11. TLemun

    TLemun Cadet Newbie

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    Even with a known cloaked escort it just seems like a bad idea for Chang to be beaming back and forth. You're just asking for the Enterprise sensors to pick up on what you're doing.

    Then again, Chang wasn't exactly forward thinking, so who knows. :)
     
  12. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I thought it was important and part of the plan that a few of the Chancellor's staff would become unwitting pawns, in that they weren't part of the conspiracy but would have valid testimony for the show trial and thus further heat up the politics of the war, to fan the flames as it were.
     
  13. Runetouch

    Runetouch Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I presume that Chang expected that Kirk would surrender. Even if he didn't, and the Enterprise destroyed his ship, peace between Starfleet and Klingons would not have been achieved and they would have remained enemies and so, even if he died, his objective would have been accomplished.
     
  14. blueziggy

    blueziggy Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    personally, i think chang was a little more devious. he probably was on the bird of prey. that transmission could easily be faked. the enterprise not knowing of the bop would only attack kronos one. more than likey kronos one would be destroyed, thus eliminating a vast majority of the government... except the chief of staff chang. could give him control of the empire. explaining the fact that he is there when kirk and mccoy beam over is simple, he beamed back to kronos one before they did.
     
  15. TLemun

    TLemun Cadet Newbie

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    The thing is there is no reason for him to be on the BOP. The BOP is only there to take out K1's gravitational field for the assassins. At which point the loyal Klingons on K1 will attack the Enterprise. Chang doesn't need to beam over to the BOP to give the order to fire and then beam back.

    More than likely, Chang is on the K1 bridge. If anything goes wrong (like Kirk surrendering) he's exactly where he is supposed to be and he can't be linked to the conspiracy.
     
  16. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    Chang probably counted on the Enterprise crew having no idea what had happened, and as the K1 came around to fire, one of a few things would happen, all of them suited to Chang's plans:

    1. K1 would fire on the Enterprise and blow it up, keeping the war alive.
    2. Enterprise would shoot first, destroy the K1, and keep the war alive.
    3. Enterprise would surrender, and Chang could move on to the next phase of his plans to derail the peace process.

    Kind of a clever plan when you look at it that way. Things played into his hands no matter what.
     
  17. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Probably all the events were rather plotted. So, the Plan A would have been a battle between the Enteprise and Kronos 1 and the Plan B the Kirk's arrestation with an attemp to convince the Federation's president to allow the Operation Retrieve. This operation would have of course crushed the peace negociations.
     
  18. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You just made up that word. ;)
     
  19. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    This makes a LOT of sense. But the on screen evidence (Chang's secret command into his communicator in the Enterprise transporter room and Gorkon's "Find Chang!") IMO strongly suggests he beamed to the BOP. I'm also not sure his subordinates on the BOP would have had the stones to fire on K1, their flagship with their chancellor on board. Purely conjecture there though.

    Are Enterprise sensors so bad that they can't detect the point of origin of a photon torpedo? Given the situation, wouldn't external (and internal) monitoring systems been turned up to 11??? :confused: I just don't get how a crew this experienced doesn't even consider the possibility of another ship until Spock has to do a paint by numbers for Scotty and Checkov.

    Also, given the immediate disparity between physical evidence (torpedo inventory) and software (data bank), physical evidence always wins. I do get that everyone was in serious WTF mode after the torpedo hit, but again IMO Spock (thank God real Spock was back for this movie!!!) should have cleared this up in a few hours tops.
     
  20. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What secret command?

    He was ordering Kronos 1 to beam Gorkon's party back over.

    Or are you really saying Chang gave out secret orders in full view of everyone with the intention of not beaming back to Kronos 1 at a point where Gorkon will know he's not back on the ship since he's not on the transporter pad with everyone when they get back.