Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Cheney)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by randomfan86, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    You can declare victory all you want; clearly none has been acheived. You tend to make one line statements so I might've missed your posts while trying to answer the longer thought out arguments. Your last one liner said "her personal motive was to take out the cylons". Her personal motive was to take on the cylons in smart guerilla war, with the goal of taking back their home.

    And yes, good ole' Dick Cheney and the US of A. Ordered the torture of at least 50 individuals. Also ordered the rendition of many others (giving meaner intelligence agencies custody of our combatants so they could do harsher torture including RAPE!!). Add FDR with his internments and Lincoln with his scorched earth strategy both of which made what Cain did look like child's play. But I guess none of them tortured of one of their ex-lover who also happened to be guilty of genocide unlike someone else we know;)
     
  2. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    ok where onscreen was this 'smart guerilla war' depicted?

    it isn't.

    because it only exists in your head

    so some real world leaders have done worse stuff, Nelson mandela never committed any atrocities. compare her to him for a change. she comes out bad then.

    its an exact equivalent to your comparison of those leaders, before you comeback with 'false equivilancy' again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  3. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Your conclusion is based on the premise that the other side wouldn't also have advanced weapons which is false. Also, they are not immortal and can die if they wish to continue a fruitless fight from long distance.
     
  4. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    On screen, destroying the Resurrection Ship. Cain after discovering Starbuck's competence promotes her and tasks her to create a mission-plan to destroy it and approves the plan. She commanded the mission and the mission is a rousing success with the resurrection ship destroyed.

    Its said in Pegasus that they were stalking the resurrection ship for awhile waiting for the right moment to ambush when they ran into Galactica.

    At the end of Razor Adama, after studying the totality of Cain's tactics declares he cannot find fault with any of the tacitics Cain used. Starbuck declares the fleet is less safe without her. Pretty much everyone on the Pegasus agree with this statement. This last point takes care of all the various gaps that the on-screen time doesn't provide us.
     
  5. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cool, you can have Mandella, Mother Theresa, and Ghandi leading your war. I'll take FDR, Lincoln and Cain..,you can keep the change.
     
  6. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    please stop saying this over and over again. it isn't proof. why didn't you try the 'cain wanted to protect humans' line again too?

    one mission is not a guerilla war
     
  7. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    LOL...that mission took setup...that's how they ran into Galactica. And that mission is but a slice of what we were shown of her adventures. Battestar had twenty something episodes before we saw Cain. What we didn't see we can only rely on what Adama and the Pegasus' own crew say.
     
  8. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    and they said 'she stripped civilian ships and left them to die'. great heroic adventures there.

    stop making shit up
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  9. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I left part of the citation from my post because the point made there is still true. Even if Starbuck is an angel or some other divine agent, people will still draw their own conclusions, no matter what the characters shout out on behalf of the writers.

    The south Korean people have since discovered that capitalism is not the cornucopia promised, and the supposed Communist propaganda about the inevitability of capitalist crisis was simply education. This woman was first elected by the ruling class, then sold to the populace. The chances that her real platform, the one she really wants to carry out, is the one she ran on are pretty miniscule. The assumption that the new Park's election is an unreserved endorsement of the old Park is not as easily justified as you seem to think. I hope you're wrong, because I would hate to despise the people of south Korea.

    The assumption that FDR is widely endorsed as a leader despite his many atrocities suffers from two problems. First, his domestic program, the New Deal, has been under attack from the beginning and it's destruction is well underway. Second, FDR's criminal acts during WWII (most notably mass internment of Nisei) have actually been widely condemned, not endorsed. FDR is widely hated, especially for things that are not criminal, such as making an alliance with the USSR against the Nazis.

    It is hard to openly apologize for slavery, but as a matter of fact, insofar as it is possible to propagate Lincoln hate without giving the game away, it is done. It was not an accident that Argo won Best Picture over Lincoln. It is obligatory to announce that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, etc., always in the most invidious way possible.

    Whatever the merits your analysis of the show's intentions, your real life comparisions show shameless bias.

    PS The US militarists seem to like repeat the mantra about how no army has conquered Afghanistan in history. I suppose it sounds like a good excuse. But, as a matter of historical fact, Alexander the Great did conquer Afghanistan. It was called Bactria then, and Greek kings ruled for quite a long time. Also, the Mongols succeeded, so well that their descendants, called the Hazaras, are still a major ethnic group in Afghanistan. I'm sure the US Army Generals like to imagine they are the equivalent of Alexander the Great. But in practice they are more like the Mongols, which is why they can't build a reliable puppet state. Mongols were barbarians, not builders of civilized societies. (Terminological note: "barbarian" in this context has mostly to do with being a nomadic society, and "civilized societies" in this case is rather literally about societies that live in cities.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  10. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Burke was just doing his job.
     
  11. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Mod Awakens Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    [RandomFan] He was a great guy, and a brilliant tactician for a businessman.

    Linkin Park did far worse than anything he did, which was fairly mild. They recorded tracks for the Transformers films, so clearly anything Burke did pales in comparison to that monstrous act. Oops, wrong Lincoln and Park.

    It doesn't matter that no one here is defending the more questionable of Lincoln's, Park's, or FDR's actions from either a timely or a modern context (which BSG society is roughly supposed to be analogous to but with some major technological perks), I'll just keep mentioning them over and over again anyway like that's an actual argument.

    Plus, asI've already demonstrated, as long as you improve the economy, all crimes are forgiven. And since 90% of the Aliens-universe economy seems to be centered around Weyland-Yutani, making a few human sacrifices in the name of the bioweapons division is a small price to pay for economic prosperity.

    Gorman showed up with Burke at Ripley's apartment, so clearly he was a good guy, because Gorman never made any mistakes himself, right? His impression of Burke must be unquestionable.

    Plus, Burke shoved Gorman aside and said "you had your chance" when he was trying to prevent Ripley from rescuing the ambushed Colonial Marines, so obviously Burke's whole mission was just to save the Marines. Never mind that he was only saving them long enough to get him and his potential alien incubators Ripley and Newt off the planet safely, after which he was going to sabotage their cryopods in midflight. I'll just keep mentioning his selfless defense of the Marines as if that was his actual mission all along and ignore everything that doesn't fit my narrative.

    Also, like Admiral Cain, Burke was a tactical genius when he sealed himself off from the only people with weapons in a building full of xenomorphs, even though they explicitly stated that they would bring him back to Earth to expose his crimes, and Earth was where The Company seems to control practically everything, so I'm sure they could have gotten him off. But hey, tactical genius.

    Oh, yeah, also STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN! STRAWMAN! GODWIN! GODWIN! GODWIN! It doesn't matter if it's not a strawman if it's actually quotable arguments I've made, or that there's nothing wrong with mentioning Hitler or the Nazis if the situation is actually comparable to Hitler or the Nazis, I'm not going to address those types of lazy arguments. I'll just repeat the same discredited points 500 times, because that's not lazy. [/RandomFan]


    There, that should handle his next forty posts or so. Just make the same type of arguments about Cain and you're all set.
     
  12. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Not so; you've very clearly got the losing end of the argument in your exchanges with Locutus if no one else. Among other things he's showing a great deal more familiarity with and reliance upon what actually occurred in the drama and how the character behaved, while you continue to resort to generalizations drawn from superficial comparisons to real-world events to draw conclusions about how the character "ought" to be viewed. Evidence trumps all else in this kind of argument, and the most relevant evidence is what was in the story.
     
  13. The Stig

    The Stig Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Exactly. Adama had just denied Starbuck's request to return to Caprica and Starbuck was desperate to find a way back. Cain was her only option (or so Starbuck thought at the time.) Additionally, Starbuck very clearly admired Cain's clarity of purpose, even if that purpose was totally heinous, because Starbuck herself was so often conflicted and unable to focus her actions.
     
  14. Stoo

    Stoo Captain Premium Member

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    well played sir. *salute*
     
  15. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I'll give her that. She kills the innocent and the guilty alike. :lol:

    Remember, aside from leaving civilians to die, she also deliberately murdered families just to get people to serve her.

    Every time you compare her to someone or some action you think is worse, you're trying to cast her in a favorable light. You may not be saying she was "right", but you're trying to justify actions that many of us feel are unjustifiable.

    It doesn't matter what others have done. None of that will turn us into Cain fans.

    That's true. I'd work on that.

    Right. And our point is that it can't.

    That's only true if you assume Adama is never wrong. The viewer can also make up his own mind, which we have.

    Some people certainly do.

    Come back when you find some.
     
  16. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum God's Perfect Idiot Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Based on actually watching the show and not the fantasy inside my own head, both Colonial and Cylon forces seemed fairly evenly matched in terms of one to one firepower. Cylons were superior in terms of sheer numbers. There are two Battlestars remaining, both surviving by pure luck and possibly a Cylon trying to fight her own programming in Galactica's case. Boomer was supposed to destroy Galactica, but she stopped herself. The Cylon's plan was to kill every single human in the universe. Letting a single Battlestar go because they blew up a few Basestars isn't going to make them stop. The skinjobs and the Raiders resurrect if they get killed, making them immortal and also able to learn from their mistakes. Based on what was actually shown on the show, they were willing to deal with humans who resorted to suicide bombings. These bombings did not truly harm the Cylons, they created confusion that helped when the Galactica showed up. At that point the Cylons were just going to nuke the planet and kill anyone left. The only time they actually did damage to the Cylons was when they destroyed the Resurrection Ship. That's with two Battlestars and their Vipers. A single Battlestar randomly attacking Basestars is just running, based on what was actually shown if there are two or three Basestars, a Battlestar is nearly destroyed in minutes. Cain would have never been able to get near the Colonies due to it being crawling with Basestars at the time. They were only able to even go back using captured Cylon ships. The Pegasus would have jumped in, maybe take out a few Basestars before finally getting blown apart. Maybe in a way similar to how she actually went out, but in a less heroic and more suicidal way.
     
  17. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum God's Perfect Idiot Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Personally I'm glad the fictional character who never existed is dead, especially the way she died.

    Team Cylon
     
  18. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    who'd of thought she didn't have a tactic to deal with an intruder in her quarters, the unbeatable genius tactician that she was?

    or at least have a guard posted to her door. unless he was off raping prisoners right then.
     
  19. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    All things being equal, I'd say that Cavil is the one who needs defending the most. He was right. Building meat robots that can't transmigrate into metal bodies at will is kind of absurd. From a design standpoint, the Final Five were completely wrong. It would have been much more efficient to produce a resurrection system that could drop a personality into any body it wants, including artificial ones. Also, the Colonies probably deserved to be nuked, because they were all giant assholes.
     
  20. Ancient Mariner

    Ancient Mariner Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cain executed children. Since when is that morally dubious? How is that even remotely defensible? :confused:
     
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