Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Cheney)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by randomfan86, Apr 2, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Mod Awakens Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Huntington Beach, California
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Oh, I shall impugn, sir. I'll impugn as much as I want. In fact, I'm impugning right now. What, are we supposed to worry about hurting the fictional feelings of the fictional megalomaniac murderer?

    You're acting like she's being tried before the space Hague or something.

    Just keep repeating that Adama line as if it's an actual argument. He's capable of being wrong. He was wrong on many occasions. I demonstrated with a list of terrible tactical decisions she made why he was wrong about her. Why not address those instead of repeating that line again?

    Starbuck said it at a funeral in front of the Pegasus crew which they were trying to integrate into Galactica's command structure at the time. What do you expect her to say? "Cain was a nutjob and I'm glad she's dead"?

    You keep coming back to Adama and Starbuck after Cain's death, but what about Roslin and Lee? Or Adama before she died when she was a menace to him and his crew?

    And again, who did she protect? I want factual examples, not Starbuck's hypothetical.
     
  2. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Location:
    Avon
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    i so want to go the Space Hague! and see all the Space Dutch!

    although if i was a Space Criminal, i think i'd want a new Space Lawyer
     
  3. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Because he can do the latter and not the former.
     
  4. Ancient Mariner

    Ancient Mariner Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2009
    Location:
    A deserted gin joint on the Lower East Side
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    In which case, considering the body count she left behind, she was a miserable failure. So not only were her methods indefensible, so were her results.
     
  5. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    False equivalency. What Cain did was part of a strategy overall to eventually defeat the Cylons. The Cylons were the one's who decided to commit genocide including the Cylon she was torturing.

    No, her really ruthless actions started before she was betrayed so its more likely that it played a minimal role in her motives. She was ruthless in every aspect of waging war. I never said it made it "okay". I do not condone or condemn anything she has done. I have purposely tried to avoid any moral judgements in this thread. I am merely putting Cain in the context of war. Everyone in war has used torture, Cain limited it to one person, while the US tortured over 50 individuals.

    The comparison make sense in that a lot of people consider both "immoral actions". Scorched Earth purposely destroys civilian infrastructure and food. It kills civilians.. Cain stripped the civilian ships for parts she needed. One is destruction for the purpose of making the enemy submit...one is scavanging for parts...in both instances I doubt the civilian gives a damn when he is dying. In fact, on balance if you pressed the civilian on which was worse, it might be an enemy army purposely destroying their life lines vs. a supporting army stripping them for resources..

    If you're going to judge her harshly that I assume you'll debate a black person today when they tell you Lincoln was right in doing what she did.

    That's a good thing, it gives you a dispassionate view of things. In terms of how literature works, they provided the last scenes about Cain in the show and movie respectively. The main characters (including the whole Pegasus crew) ultimately vindicating her upon reflection should add a lot of weight to how we should think of them. I think that's what the writers were trying to convey.

    I think Starbuck and Adama's reflections were genuine. Especially Adama as he was speaking to Lee in a very candid moment without pretense. He was trying to give Lee sage advice as he moved forward as a commander. And yes, Adama smacked down Lee in that scene for being naive and self righteous. He knew a leader couldn't afford to be either during war and that Kendra Shaw was ultimately an asset. That whole scene was a vindication of Cain and her protege Shaw.

    No, Cain was fighting a smart guerrilla war to retake Caprica. The house might've been destroyed but the home was still there.

    In the context of the universe, the odds might not have been as bleak as you portray. If Cain were still alive, commanding both the Pegasus and Galactica engaging in a guerrilla war, I don't think the odds are as bleak as you portray as displayed by their one successful collaboration with her in command of both. Adama acknowledged her tactics engaging in this type of warfare were pretty flawless. They might have run into other Battlestars that survived. Too much to hope for? Perhaps but many guerrilla warriors in the past didn't give up in the face of long odds and ultimately suceeded against superpowers.

    Making Hitler comparisons is pointless and degrades the conversation. You can go ahead and defend it, but I make it a practice to ignore such intellectual laziness.

    You guys are the ones repeating the arguments. I have a similar response to those arguments each time.

    Sigh once again straw-manning me to death. As I've said, in this thread I am merely putting Cain in context. I don't think I've made any personal moral judgements on any actions i.e. "this is morally okay." I am merely saying in the context of war many leaders that are lionized (FDR, Park, Lincoln) have done actions that have caused more harm than Cain did.

    I never said anything about some action being "right" or "wrong" just because someone else did it. These are damn straw-men. I am once again just bringing up those examples to put Cain in the context of war. And yes, what she did was pretty mild in comparison to scorched earth, internment, and Park's torture/oppression in Korea. I also bring up the US Constitution to show that during war, the constitution gives the executive a lot of power.

     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  6. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I meant impugning my motives because I had a different opinion than most in this thread. Adama said context matters in everything and that is what I'm trying to provide in this thread.
     
  7. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum The Friendly Face of Brutal Facism Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2001
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cain was mainly concerned with attacking the Cylons and keeping the Pegasus going. The rest of humanity were either needed to achieve this or obstacles, ones that she had no problem removing. If her chief goal was to keep the human race alive, then the Pegasus would have had its own fleet. While wiping out the Cylons can be seen as a worthy goal and would save what's left of humanity, she was clearly more focused on taking out the Cylons even if the human race went extinct in the process.
     
  8. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Her goal wasn't to wipe out the Cylons. It was to fight a smart guerrilla war with the goal of taking back their home, Caprica. The whole revenge thing was a rah-rah speech to get the troops going after they learned of the genocide. In the next scene, she states her real goal.
     
  9. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2001
    Location:
    where it hurts
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cain didn't care one whit about retaking Caprica until Starbuck told her there were survivors. Even then, it's probable she just told Starbuck what she wanted to hear in order to gain Starbuck's cooperation and have an ally within Adama's command.

    Cain wasn't playing some long game that ended with the reconquest of the Colonies and the destruction of the Cylon race. She was only concerned with fighting the Cylons to the last (wo)man, and in a war of attrition, one battlestar versus the entire Cylon civilization is simply suicide.
     
  10. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    The opinion of the SK people is all the matters to my argument and what they think of him. They think highly of him, that is a fact not an opinion. They democratically elected his daughter their first woman President (very paternalistic society). Whether the economic boon was directly due to him or not, it was under his watch and they give him credit, and are willing to overlook his torture/oppression/murder. That is the most relevant point to my argument.

    I am not following your going to war/reunification of Korea line of reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  11. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum The Friendly Face of Brutal Facism Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2001
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Based on what? She was clearly willing to manipulate people to achieve her goals, having Starbuck on her side would be a big win for her. Another soldier willing to die for the cause, all because she thinks she'll get to go home and save her boyfriend. Never realizing that Cain only wanted to kill as many Cylons as she could. If she wanted to take back the Colonies, not that a single Battlestar ever could. That's why Adama was talked out of the same thing, it's a suicide mission and he realized it.
     
  12. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    She doesn't have a history of manipulating people. Her style is more "my way or the highway" vs. manipulation. And her stating Caprica/the other colonies was her ultimate goal wasn't contingent on rescuing survivors when she told Starbuck that it was her ultimate goal. Home was always her ultimate goal.

    The odds seem long, but they also seemed that way for many guerrilla warriors throughout history that took on superpowers. They ran into Galactica...whose to say they wouldn't have run into others.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  13. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Guerrilla warriors who took on Superpowers without another superpower backing them up pretty much all have one thing in common. They lost.

    What you seem to be missing is that the Cylons could have beaten her through the simple expedience of applying the Zap Brannigan school of warfare. That is to say, they could have just thrown baseships at her until she ran out of bullets.

    Logistics matter. Your guns and bombs and fighters and soldiers have to come from somewhere. The Cylons had factories and they were immortal clones. They essentially have an arbitrarily large population base and arbitrarily large manufacturing capability to go with it. You can't guerrilla that, not without outside support.
     
  14. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum The Friendly Face of Brutal Facism Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2001
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    She was trying to manipulate Starbuck the whole time she was on the ship and seemed to have way more control over the crew of Pegasus than Adama did over Galactica's crew. The fact that she would kill anyone who disagreed with her certainly helped.

    Also there were no others. The entire Colonial Fleet used Baltar's program and were disabled during the attack. Pegasus survived because it was temporarily down and Galactica survived due to Adama refusing to allow computer networks on the ship. Also she abandoned any other ship they found after taking what she needed. If not for the Galactica and possibly Adama's glare she would have done the same to the rest of the fleet. If you find survivors and you leave them to die from the very enemy you're fighting, survival isn't the plan. She wanted to take down as many Cylons as she could before dying. She may have some deep rooted psychological issues given the scene of her as a child during the war.

    That kind of fighting only makes sense if you cause enough damage to keep the enemy want to stop, due to it not being worth it. They keep losing soldiers and wasting resources on a war where the other side refuse to surrender. The Cylons would never be worried about that. They're immortal and were completely convinced that wiping out the entire human race was their purpose in life. That isn't the kind of enemy that is just going to give up because a single ship is randomly attacking Basestars.
     
  15. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Location:
    RIP Leonard Nimoy
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    The fact the Cylons let Cain live as long as they did shows they didn't see her as a viable threat. Had she been a real threat, she'd jumped into a "raid" only to be blown out of the stars within the first couple minutes of the battle.
     
  16. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    False. Look no further than our current situation in Afghanistan. The only support the Taliban is getting is pretty limited support from Pakistan's ISI (their intelligence service...should note in fairness to Pakistan, they will call these false allegations and outrageous). They've fought the US to a stalemate over the course of 12 years. In the long game...the US will withdraw in 2014, experts say chances are good of a Taliban takeover.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
  17. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum The Friendly Face of Brutal Facism Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2001
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    It's because we've wasted over a trillion dollars in that war, killed or maimed too many of our soldiers and over a decade for a hellhole that no army in history has been able to control and never will.

    We probably wouldn't have this problem if we were immortal robots, used nukes like bullets and thought we will doing the will of God to wipe them out instead of installing democracy.

    The situations are as far apart as shit can get.
     
  18. Stoo

    Stoo Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Location:
    phobos lab
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Next week on scifi villain apologism: "carter burke: not that bad really".

    Registering on a forum just to take an obviously unpopular stance and argue lots? I think we're being played.
     
  19. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Location:
    Avon
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    though as randomfan seems to have ignored my last posts i'm going to declare victory!

    how many times can you use 'but adama and starbuck said something that one time so it justifies everything' anyway?

    i guess when your entire arguement is contradicted by everything onscreen you have to cling to the tiniest thing.

    also this thread doesn't have enough Dick Cheney. He may be a psychotic war criminal, but at least he didn't order rape-torture against an ex-lover. good old dick.
     
  20. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2013
    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Once again, there is no need to question my motives. I am new to the forum, yes, but she is my favorite and has been getting a lot of crap from fans. People have a myopic view of her.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.