Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Cheney)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by randomfan86, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    A very ends justifies the means POV, eh? Context does not make it right. And by that argument, you condone the enemy doing the same thing to your troops; cause from the context of the enemy's POV it's necessary.

    Assuming for a moment that she did gain some short term useful intelligence, once the "value" of Gina was drained why continue to allow the rape and torture? Gina was not a high value assets, the Cylons seemed not to care that she was there--if they even knew she was there, she was catatonic and unresponsive (nothing more than a fuck toy for the crew), so why even keep her alive? Unless it was to further her humiliation and make her "pay" for breaking Cain's heart. Cain's actions were not those of a sane or healthy mind.
     
  2. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I concede that personal feelings might've played a role in that, but I think it was mainly for intelligence. I think personal betrayal played a minimal role in Cain's ruthless tactics, evidenced by the fact that her ruthlessness began before the betrayal.


    If you ask a black man if Lincoln was wrong to authorize a scorched earth strategy (purposely destroying civilian infrastructure and food...you can argue morally worse than Cain stripping civilian ships) to help win the Civil War, what answer do you think you'll get?
     
  3. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Damn straight. I cheered when Gina blew Cain's brains out: justice. :cool:
     
  4. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Probably not as much support as you would like to think. Especially considering that they were in the line of fire--so to speak.

    And Cain's tactics were ruthless and suicidal. Gina, was about "you hurt me, I'll hurt you worse". Again, once the intelligence dried up, why continue to rape and torture her.
     
  5. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I concede, that personal feelings may have played a role there. But they might not have since Cain's ruthless actions started before the torture...so its hard to differentiate without the show clearing it up. If you asked black people today, or if you read the history books and what's taught in class rooms, they'll tell you of course Lincoln made the right move.
     
  6. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Today, yes. Then, not so much
     
  7. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Should Janeway have set down on the first habitable planet? You could argue she should have. The odds were long yes, but some things are worth fighting for like home. Remember Adama would have fought as well. In the context of the universe, the odds might not have been as bleak as you portray. If Cain were still alive, commanding both the Pegasus and Galactica engaging in a guerrilla war, I don't think the odds are as bleak as you portray as displayed by their one successful collaboration with her in command of both. Adama acknowledged her tactics engaging in this type of warfare were pretty flawless. They might have run into other Battlestars that survived. Too much to hope for? You could argue a pilgrimage to a mythical planet was also.

    The same things you guys are saying were said about other guerrilla warriors throughout history against mighty superpowers but many succeeded in what were considered long odds. Never count out a guerrilla force willing to fight and die for their homes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  8. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Caesar Julius and his nephew Caesar Augustus were much better than the triumvirate rule that preceded them respectively. It would be especially the case in this war situation with a tactically sound leader like Cain.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  9. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    lol
     
  10. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    so cain should've declared herself emperor?

    i think you can say:

    cain shook up the series, was an interesting obstacle for the regulars to overcome and michelle forbes is always awesome

    however:

    as a character her actions are undefendable (or so i thought). she consistently made the wrong decisions, whatever her justifications. and saying 'rape-torture is ok if it gets you some intelligence (it didn't though, did it?)' is disgusting.

    would you still defend, if say leoben had raped starbuck. 'it's ok he was intelligence gathering and the humans are the insurgents in this scenario'. if you think it was a valid tactic for cain, then this would have to be a valid tactic for the cylons. and for the record there are no strawmen in that equivalency, so don't even try that shit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  11. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    In war, even in modern times, the United States (today's equivalent of the Roman Empire) constitutionally concentrates power in the executive vs. diffusing it. Furthermore, there's a reason why Obama won't investigate any torture with the previous administration while morally condemning it. As the President, he understand even if you find it morally reprehensible and do not engage in it yourself, an executive should be immune from prosecution in order to exercise the full extent of power when at war. It was found constitutional for FDR to intern 100,000 of US's own citizens based on ethnicity.

    Someone as tactically competent as Cain made the right call by consolidating power and preventing mutiny.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  12. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    i really should've added a laughing face to that first sentence.

    'if the president does it, its not illegal' - skeletor

    now how about the actual serious content in that previous post?
     
  13. Stoo

    Stoo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    There was no home left to fight for. And for much of her campaign of crazy, she only had one battlestar.

    Her duty was pretty clear - she'd found some remnant of the human race. Take them and run and keep running and run some more. To be fair Adama was going to fight at first, as well, but at least he was willing to listen to a voice of reason. And he wasn't plundering the civillians for parts.
     
  14. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    also since when was the 'if it's a guerilla war you can get away with extra nasty shit'' an actual justification?
     
  15. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Talk about a damn straw-man.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  16. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    strawman? that was the gist of your comments earlier

    how about that straw-hitler you brought out of nowhere?

    your rationale seems to be torture is justified because america used it. and america is the 'good guys'

    and you can't just address the many rebuttals by just saying you have and hope no one noticed you didn't.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  17. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    As a citizen of the US, I wouldn't prosecute the President for using torture if he felt it was necessary to defend the country during war. I don't begrudge a citizen of another country that adopts a similar attitude with their own executive when engaged in war against us. War is a dirty business.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I knew the show was the wrong show for me when I started rooting for the Cylons to exterminate humanity. :lol:
     
  19. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Straw-hitler... there was a Hitler comparison made in the thread.

    I have addressed pretty much everything. Nobody has addressed my scorched earth policy arguments, and reference of South Korea's dictator to defend Cain.
     
  20. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    It's unnecessary to address all content in the OP, or content from anywhere else in this thread, in order to rebut the stated thesis in the OP that Cain was the "best option", not to mention that she rose to the status of a "good leader". That's undoubtedly one reason why some of the posters in this thread haven't bothered to. The fact that South Korea in 1961 is at least as far removed from nuBSG as most anything else in the world is undoubtedly another.
     
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