Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Cheney)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by randomfan86, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I really like Michelle Forbes as an actress, and I think she did a great job with Cain. That being said, I've rarely been as happy to see a villain take a round to the head as I was to see Cain get killed. Whatever part of Cain was human checked out a long time ago.

    As for defending her: There's lines you don't cross, even in war, no matter how shitty you and your ship are having it. Makes me feel bad for the other female members of the Pegasus's crew. I got the feeling that the jackals lining up to rape Gina would have been deterred by something as simple as their victim being fully human.
     
  2. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Nothing Cain did made any sense from a rational standpoint. Her actions were not going to do anything but get them killed, and doom what few civilians they encountered. Being under her command was a death sentence, and her XO was right to recognize it, albeit too late.

    It wasn't a question of being "tough" or "soft," but one of making smart decisions that maximize limited resources and preserve human lives above all else. Striking back at the Cylons for petty revenge made no rational sense at all. Their best bet was to take all the people and equipment they could and high-tail it away from the Colonies and any Cylons they encountered.

    That's to say nothing of using Gina as the crew's living fuck doll. There is no way to justify that at all, ever, under any circumstances. The term for it is "war crime." Perhaps those defending Cain should look it up, because she was a war criminal, many times over. There was just no civilian authority to hold her accountable anymore.
     
  3. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I think you should reconsider your definition of "good guys".
     
  4. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    That was the point. Its used by everybody on all sides during war. America used it when it was a superpower, not in danger of any existential threat. To crucify Cain for torturing one person is wrong.
     
  5. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Not considering Cain to be a "good leader" or the "best option" is not the same as "crucifying" her. Nice straw man.
     
  6. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Long before Cain was a character, the Abu Ghraib episode firmly established that our enemies were not really human and their pretenses of suffering were merely a cunning ploy to torment us with guilt or win an unearned sympathy.

    Later, Gina nuked the Cloud Nine to give away the fleet's location. The storyline says that Cain made a mistake in allowing the Cylon to live.

    In the desperate effort to wrap up the mutiny arc, the show had Adama forthrightly state that Roslin was correct in forbidding further combat when the war was lost. Any further dialogue that contradicts this, an explicit condemnation of everything the Cain does in pursuit of a wrong strategy, can only mean one of two things. Either Adama and Roslin were wrong, which seems an insane interpretation. Or, Cain was meant to be a tragic or maybe even noble figure, not a psychopath or villain. An antihero?
     
  7. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Read the other comments about Cain torturing one person and I'd call it crucifying/condemning.
     
  8. diankra

    diankra Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    For me, the key point is that Adama says "Tactically, she did nothing wrong." As an earlier poster pointed out, tactics win battles, strategy wins wars. Sometimes being willing to lose a battle that can be won but isn't worth winning is what allows you to win the war. Cain was too interested in being ready for the next battle.
    In this case, the ultimate 'war' was the survival of the Colonial species, and abandoning civilians or raiding them for supplies was the wrong strategic call unless there was no chance of preserving them (but of course, to quote Adama's success in preserving his fleet as proof that there was invokes 20-20 hindsight, so it doesn't prove that she was wrong to take the decision under the circumstances).
     
  9. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cain's crimes went far beyond torturing one Cylon.
     
  10. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I agree with the bolded, but disagree with the rest. Consider waging a guerrilla war (many examples throughout history where a small guerrilla force has beat back a superpower) and fighting for your home vs. a pilgrimage to a mythical planet. In hindsight the choice might be wrong, but in reality the first choice is the more rational option that most people will take and many have previously succeeded in. Thus, you have to judge her based on that. And Adama's quote seems to say that her tactics were flawless in waging that strategy.
     
  11. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I've addressed the other abuses. The only argument I got in return was a fulfilling of Godwin's law.
     
  12. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    But as I said up thread, the guerilla warfare on has it's advantages when you're trying to drive out an occupying force.

    It achieves nothing when they've pretty much destroyed your entire civilization and there's nothing to go back to.

    By fleeing with the civllians, Cain would have helped ensure that mankind wasn't totally and 100% wiped out.
     
  13. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    :shrug:

    There have been at least several well-considered rebuttals of the OP not invoking Hitler in this thread.
     
  14. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Indeed; at this rate they'll be able to crew a battlestar completely with straw men. :lol:
     
  15. diankra

    diankra Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    How many Cylon basestars did the Pegasus knock out? How many more could it hope to knock out before it ran out of luck, or just lost enough people to not be able to keep on fighting?
    Unless she could hope to wipe out every Cylon with her single battlestar before her luck ran out, she didn't have a strategy any more than Butch and Sundance did in the final scenes. At best, she was just going out fighting, taking as many of 'Them' with her before she went.

    That's a tactic. It works strategically if you're buying time for the other units to regroup and fight back once you've made your heroic sacrifice. But if you're all that's left (or think you are), then...
     
  16. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    1) Was it ever proven that Cain's sanction of torture 'netted any actionable intelligence? For that matter, once any useful info had been gleamed, why continue the rape and torture, beyond petty desire to hurt Gina.

    2) By arguing that it was "guerrilla war tactics" then that argument basically says "it's okay to rape and torture" the "good guys" so long as the other guy is using "guerrilla war tactics"

    Cain was a sick person and a poor Commander. It isn't even about traveling to Earth. Once she realized that the Cylons had other interests (re: Galactica) she should have rounded up as many civvie and military survivors as she could and headed off the chart for a planet they could colonize.
     
  17. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    And I've responded to those rebuttals. Nobody has addressed my reference of South Korea's former leader without invoking godwin's law (as a practice I tend not to respond when godwin's law is invoked...and I think South Koreans would find that offensive). Nobody has addressed my point about scorched Earth warfare (purposefully destroying civilian infrastructure and food supplies as a strategy in and of itself) including it being used by the Union...contrasting that with Cain just scavenging for parts her ship needed. And nobody has addressed my point about everybody using torture during war including a superpower that wasn't in danger of an existential threat and the cylons themselves in that universe.

    These points taken in totality address all of Cain's abuses and puts them in context. War is ugly folks and what Cain did was relatively mild.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  18. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Talk about strawmen...
     
  19. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Is rape/torture a valid tactic, yes or no? If it's valid for "us", it's valid for "them". It's a simple question: Either you believe and support rape and torture as a valid means of gathering military intelligence, or you don't. You either believe it's "right" or that it's "wrong". None of the bullshit about everyone does/has done it, that doesn't make it right or justified.

    And I missed one up thread about Gina blowing up Cloud 9: Remember Baltar gave her the nuke, dumped her, and left her suicidal. So it was largely Baltar's fault that the new colony got found out by the 'nuke blast.
     
  20. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I don't look at it like that. If you ask the South Koreans if their dictator was wrong to torture/murder/oppress their people. They will likely tell you yes, but to put things in context and that during hard times, such things can be overlooked if the leader is a great leader doing good things like they tell you their dictator was (minus the opression) . I think everything has to be looked at in context and if you look at what Cain did in the context of war, it was pretty mild. If you ask a black man if Lincoln wrong to authorize a scorched earth strategy (you can argue morally worse than Cain stripping civilian ships) to help win the Civil War, what answer do you think you'll get?
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
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