Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Cheney)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by randomfan86, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    And they were done in sight of the greater good. To misquote a very great man, a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the human race.

    Cain made some wrong choices but she was under an insane amount of pressure and for all she knew was protecting the only existing humans. She couldn't afford to be soft.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    But a sane person would know that they couldn't save the human race by taking the Cylons head-on. The only way to "win" was to survive and rebuild elsewhere. Live to fight another day.

    Clearly she was psychopathic. Whether she always was or was as a result of the apocalypse is up to individual viewers to decide.
     
  3. Stoo

    Stoo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Protect remnants of civillisation... or plunder them and go on a reckless and pointless attack.

    Perhaps "god" thought she wasn't worth the assistance...
     
  4. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    She was emotionally compromised and wasn't thinking logically but this doesn't translate as psychopathic. I find very few political decisions to be sensible or humane, it doesn't mean I believe David Cameron is a psychopath.
     
  5. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Raiding civilians for the greater good of... what?

    I hope you're not going to suggest she had to destroy the village in order to save it.



    Edit: And I'm not necessarily arguing that she's psychopathic. Only that her decisions were made from a very narrow-minded, selfish and inflexible point of view. I can't find fault with her tactics either, but I see plenty of fault with her strategy.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Having your crew down below gang raping an enemy infiltrator equals psychopath.
     
  7. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    The decision to attack wasn't a tactical decision at all.
    The decision to attack was a strategic decision, and it was a shitty one.

    All of her tactical decisions were sound. But tactics don't win wars. Strategy and logistics do. Strategically, her decisions were utter crap.
     
  8. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    The human race. I'm not saying it was the best choice but everything Cain did was out of fear and for the ship. She wasn't some greedy Cheney figure that stood to gain money and power from the conflict.

    It's why I don't think BSG's social critique of the War on Terror really worked. Iraq had no nuclear weapons and were no threat to America. The Cyclons had just wiped out most of the human race in a nuclear holocaust. It made that type of behaviour far more reasonable.
     
  9. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Norf Remembers Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Funny, I seem to recall both Galactica and Pegasus winding up in the same place months after the attack on the Colonies, hence the whole drama of her being in charge and combining the fleet. Was God slacking off? God didn't seem to give Galactica much of a head start or advantage.

    Were we watching the same show? She wasn't concerned about the safety of the human race, she was concerned about going out in a vengeful blaze of glory. If she was concerned about human survival, she wouldn't have murdered civilians, stolen the parts and personnel they needed to survive, divided families, and abandoned a fleet of civilian ships to be slaughtered. She wouldn't have gotten a third of her crew killed in an obvious trap. She wouldn't execute people simply for refusing to follow a stupid and reckless order of the type which she said she would not give the night before.

    Oh, she was under pressure? Well, shit, Adama and Roslin weren't under any pressure whatsoever with a fleet of 70+ ships to protect, so that excuses everything, I guess.

    She knew she wasn't protecting the only existing humans. You know how I know that she knew that? Because she abandoned a bunch of humans to die.
     
  10. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Raiding civilians wasn't strategically sound. One ship alone just doesn't have the logistical capability to fight a war. She needed facilities and she needed a population to man those facilities. Spare parts would eventually run out without factories to build new ones.
     
  11. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Not responding to Locutus of Bored until he gets over his power trip and stops being rude and aggressive for no reason. We are comparing fictional characters, there is no reason to speak to me like that at all. Very disrespectful. Though at least he hasn't randomly harassed my friends this time.


    That's a solid point but again, she wasn't thinking rationally. I don't agree with any her tactics I'm just defending her against calls of her being a psychopath.
     
  12. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Most fans do not "generally agree" to any such thing, and in any event you don't get to pick and choose which parts of nuBSG you get to ignore in order to hold your argument together. :cool:
     
  13. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Personally, if I were an officer on her bridge I would have fragged her at the first oppertunity.
     
  14. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Norf Remembers Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I'm just a poster in this forum like you are. I have no "power" to trip on.

    And you're not responding because you have no valid response. You've run out of flimsy excuses for rape and genocide to support the character you like.
     
  15. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Well, alright even if we have to count Razor it gives us the Adama defending Cain quote mentioned in the OP so I still win :p.
     
  16. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cain was clearly nuts (that first shot of her says it all). Or 'emotionally compromised' if you prefer. Take your pick. But indefensible.

    Roslin's vote-rigging is a far more interesting discussion.
     
  17. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    It's not even that. I guess he just enjoys stirring the pot.
     
  18. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Another reading of these compliments is that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Very good points.
     
  19. PsychoPere

    PsychoPere Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Back during the wait for season four, I posted a thread that was highly critical of Roslin's presidency, and her election fraud was a component of my argument. The thread appears to have been long since purged, or I'd link you to it so that you could read a discussion along the lines you raise.
     
  20. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    With regard to the torture of the prisoner. The prisoner had aided and abetted in a genocide. Let us not forget this. Above all Cain wanted information. One of the ways she wanted to accomplish this was by psychological torture and degradation. Torture has been used by both "good guys" and "bad guys" throughout history. Watch Zero Dark Thirty.

    With regard to raiding the civilian ships...in a lot of wars throughout history including WWI and the Civil War (the good guys...the Union did this), there was a common tactic utilized called scorched Earth where an army would destroy anything - food, homes, etc. that could be considered useful to the enemy. Lots of civilians died as a result of these tactics. At least Cain was just scavenging for things she needed. Judge her not to harshly.

    I think the end of the Pegasus arc and Razor pretty much vindicates her. At her funeral Starbuck says the fleet is less safe without her and everyone on Pegasus pretty much agrees with this. Towards the end of Razor Adama acknowledges that he can't find anything wrong tactically with anything Cain did and refuses to render a moral judgement on her. And I think what symbolically vindicates her is that her protege Kendra Shaw is promoted to XO in Razor and sacrifices herself in battle at the end. Adama recommends posthumous commendation for Shaw despite the self-righteous objections of Lee. Adama also tells a shaken Lee that his decision to sacrifice Starbuck, Shaw and the away-team (overruled by Adama) wouldn't have been the wrong decision implying Cain would have made that decision in a heartbeat.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
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