Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Cheney)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by randomfan86, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. Ensign_Redshirt

    Ensign_Redshirt Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Well, since there was nobody left who could theoretically discipline Cain, mutiny was the only remaining thing that could potentially correct her decisions. Therefore mutiny actually became a necessary tool in the absense of alternatives.

    Under normal circumstances, Cain would report to the Admiralty. The Admiralty would be appointed by the president. And the president would be elected by the people. Under such a system, the crew of the Pegasus could vote for an authority who would ultimately also control their own ship commander. All of that was gone though and Cain didn't bother to install any replacement mechanism. A sensible solution would have been to pass some kind of decree that the three most senior officers of the ship could remove the CO from command by unanimous vote or something like that (and that court-martials of any cremember can only be conducted by a panel consisting of said officers).
     
  2. Bosch571

    Bosch571 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    True but mutinous action might have been the preferred outcome. "I'm just following orders" doesn't excuse everything, especially from the second in command of the remaining military forces of the 12 colonies.

    One person with this kind of power over the continued existence of humanity needs checks.
     
  3. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cain never did anything as psycho as demand the people fly all their technology in to the sun :lol:. I'd have loved to have seen the public's reaction to that.

    Joe: Yo, Billy. Adama and Roslin say we're burning all the ships and becoming farmers on that planet.
    Billy: WTF. WHY!?
    Joe: Well, after some discussion with the angels..
    Billy: I knew we should have sided with Zarek.
     
  4. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    That should have been your clue.
     
  5. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I never found BattleStar Galactica to be watchable on a long-term basis. Rather quickly I realized it was only of symptomatic interest as to attitudes to the war amongst a certain kind of people. I suppose it is therefore logical to regard Cheney's opinions and values as relevant to a 9/11 series. I have to skip over the details about Cain.

    But, this is years later, after the trendy is over. How could we possibly take seriously a positive view of Cheney? And, by extension, a defense of Cain?
     
  6. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I don't really get the Cheney comparison. Cheney essentially commanded the safest superpower on Earth at a time when there was no real threat. Cain is in command of a Battlestar that could be annihilated at any moment by a horde of killer robots that outnumber them severely.

    She has much more right to make the tough choices. Choices that are generally rational because unlike Galactica, Cain doesn't have Gods and angels saving her ass or leading her to safety all the time.
     
  7. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Anyone who thinks Cain wasn't a psycho? I dare them to look at what she did to Juergen Belzen, to Gina (by proxy), and to the people on the civilian ships, and then come back here and repeat that.
     
  8. Stoo

    Stoo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Screw Cain. I remember characters trying to apologise for her saying "she did what it took to survive". Which is arse. Survival would have been takin those civllian ships and going on the run, just like galactica did. Instead she was so obsessed with striking back she not only committed an atrocity to get parts for her ship, she then persisted with the attack even tho it was a blatant trap resulting in high casualties and shot the XO when he protested. What was it all even for? The war was lost.

    The Old Man had his share of flaws too. So did most of the crew cos they were fucked up survivors of the end of civillisation. But they held onto some sense of both morality and perspective, while she was an extra order of magnitude of crazy.
     
  9. sidious618

    sidious618 Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Cain allowed Gina to be repeatedly raped by soldiers for fun. Anyone who thinks Cain is admirable should sit with that one for a little bit and if you still think she's admirable after that then please make sure you never allow yourself to be in a position of power as you clearly have no sense of decency.
     
  10. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Hitler has built highways and ramped up industrial production to the point of near full employment in Germany (he needed the highways for military reasons and the industry was built up with huge loans and to lay the foundations for his war engine).

    It is honestly a dumb argument.. every dictator aims to appease the largest segment of the population. First through benevolence and gifts and when that comes crumbling down due to huge economic mistakes that benevolence invariably changes to oppression and rule by fear.

    As Adama has said militarily she was a good officer.. she had experience, she ran a tight ship, she recognized talent and nurtured it and knew how to conduct a battle. That is not the issue.

    The issue is that she willingly sacrificed civilians for her drive to get revenge, she shot capable officers who disagreed with her (bypassing due process present in any civilized military) and she willingly used torture (including rape) against the enemy.

    This was the core of early BSG in what it wanted to tell.. if put under extreme pressure will you crack and abandon all civilization and decent human behaviour just to surive and win or will you stand by your principles even if it means death and defeat.

    That theme came at a perfect time in our history when the US (and the rest of the western world) struggled with the same question.. how much are you willing to give up for the sake of security and how far will you bend or even break the rules to achieve that goal?

    Cain was the antithesis to Adama.. someone who broke under pressure and dismantled her own humanity bit by bit until there was little, if anything left.
     
  11. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I think it's important to mention that Cain hadn't had the same experiences with the Cylons that Adama's gang had. She and her crew viewed them as toasters that were faking any and all emotions, just like Adama's crew did early on.

    The Pegasus is what the Galactica crew would have been like if they'd been a lot less lucky and not had a God helping them out all the time. That was the point of them and viewing them as the evil ship run by a villain is missing the point of everything that made the first 2 seasons and four episodes or so of NuBSG so excellent.
     
  12. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    No, she was fully aware of their emotional capacity and was in fact specifically exploiting those emotions as a means to an end:

     
  13. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    That line is from Razor, which fans generally agree screwed the character beyond recognition anyway. I am judging the character by her Season 2 appearance.
     
  14. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored Co-Founder of ISIS Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Well, that's a convenient load of BS. I guess we can all just disregard anything that doesn't fit our particular argument then.

    You responded to Sid's comment on her allowing Gina to be raped by saying they didn't know Cylon's were genuinely emotional beings at that time. But if you simply want to induce pain as a method of torture, there are far more expedient ways of doing so than through rape. Rape was chosen specifically to exploit those emotions mentioned above. You don't need it explicitly spelled out in Razor for their motives to be obvious, in S2 or otherwise.

    Nor was her portrayal in Razor significantly different than it was in Season 2. She was a dictatorial sociopath in both depictions.
     
  15. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    If Cylons were just cold, unfeeling machines, rape was not going to work anyway: Gina would just laugh at the pathetic attempts of humans to hurt her.

    So, no: Cain ordered it precisely because she knew full well that Gina would feel the full physical and psychological torture of the abuse.

    Try again.
     
  16. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    In other words you're picking and choosing in order to prove you point.

    Well done.

    At the end of the day, Cain got herself shot dead, Adama got to see a new world, a new home for mankind.

    Also if you go back and watch the mini-series Adama was pretty much on the verge of doing very much what Cain did - take what they needed and leave the survivors to fend for themselves.

    The RTF showed more sense than Cain did. They didn't hang around seeking revenge - they got the hell out Dodge and looked for a new life.

    All Cain's actions would have succeeded in doing is getting the Pegasus destroyed having done no real damage to the Cylons. Sure she might have had a few victories by they would have been Pyrrhic to the end.

    Guerrilla tactics are well and good when you're fighting an occupying force whether it's 1940s France or New Caprica. Going Guerrilla against them after they've destroyed 99% of your society achieves nothing.

    I guess Cain can be summed up the adage - when you set out for revenge, dig two graves.
     
  17. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    It would be impossible for me to see someone I've been emotionally involved with as a toaster. And I would hope most decent human beings wouldn't either. And as mentioned already in the thread, everything else also suggests she did not.
     
  18. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Adama would be dead too if it wasn't for constant divine intervention in the guise of citizens in his fleet constantly experiencing visions, having God-messengers in their heads which gave them the word of the almighty, and Starbuck being resurrected as an angel with the knowledge of what to do in order to get to Earth.

    Cain had none of this and had to make the tough choices. If God hadn't for some entirely unexplained reason decided to bombard the Galactica with riddles, visions and resurrections then they'd be as dead as Cain. All of them.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    But none of the above excuses the actions of Cain. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    That's true, but a lot of Cain's atrocities would have occurred even if she was bombarded with riddles and visions. Raiding civilians, murdering her XO... those things occurred very early on. As was pointed out, Adama was also ready to abandon civilians and charge into battle, but decided not to. And this was before any of the mystical stuff.

    It may be that Adama's group was offered those chances because of their initial choices.
     
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