Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Cheney)

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by randomfan86, Apr 2, 2013.

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  1. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Then you are what is wrong with the US, and you are no better than the "enemies of freedom" that US allegedly wages war against.

    And since we are on memes now, where is Roshi's penis defcon gif when we need it?
     
  2. Locutus of Bored

    Locutus of Bored The Mod Awakens Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    How dare you, sir! I know Roshi has got the penis drawing market covered, but that one was mine. I slaved away for the better part of half an hour on that. :p;)

    This is not directed at anyone, just posted by request:
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    "in the face of duty, honor is meaningless"

    this makes you the bad guy's henchman
     
  4. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Both the south and Japan received a lot of US Vietnam war spending and both economies accelerated their growth, which continued for a relatively long time (until the general East Asian economic crisis more or less.) Park's specific economic policies were indeed paralleled in Japan. There is no reason to think that Park's dictatorship had anything to do with this, especially US spending, which preceded him. This is true no matter what people supposedly think in the south about Park.

    I'm sure that you are correct in saying that it has been conventional wisdom to attribute the economic growth to Park's crimes. What I've been trying to say is that this is an idea propagated by people who a political agenda better advanced by an authoritarian or dictatorial government, a con job perpetrated on the populace.

    Further, and even more important, the vote for Park can be interpreted as endorsement for prosperity and economic growth, not for dictatorship. Or it can be interpreted as a deliberate choice for a dictatorship capable of attacking the north. As for the first, in a capitalist system, political figures, even dictators, cannot grow the economy, especial not with torture and terror. As for the second? I really doubt that this woman ran on an open platform of war, especially if that is her real agenda.

    Everything you've said paints her in a terrible light, but not being Korean, I'm not so deeply invested I hate her, sorry.

    Is he? His system has recently come to the point where even the highest levels are engaged in conspiracy mongering and fake trials in the pursuit of personal power. The most likely culmination of his heritage is devastating civil war, with massive loss of life and submission of the country to foreign domination.

    To clarify, I think FDR's domestic reforms were genuine reforms and their reversal is social degeneration. I happen to dislike FDR for his de facto support for the fascists in Spain and Ethiopia, and for the postwar planning for US expansion worldwide, not just the interment. And although many, many people dislike Lincoln and the preservation of bourgeois democracy against the slave powers, I find it overall quite admirable. My personal favorite politician of the time is the Great Commoner, Thaddeus Stevens and I loved the movie partly because it included him. In assessing Lincoln, it is important to realize that in effect the US Civil War was a revolution, in which by definition it is impossible to adhere strictly to the letter of the law, in which "voting" is by arms as well as ballots.

    That's my personal analysis of why Lincoln lost. I firmly beieve that in years to come, Lincoln is last year's movie that people will continue to watch with real interest, while interest in Argo will disappear whenever Iran drops from the official hate list du jour. I don't think there's any doubt that everyone in Hollywood knows that they were neglecting to award the Best Picture the title.

    As to Zero Dark Thirty, its only concern with torture is the toll torturing people wreaks on the poor US victims of tragic necessity. I find this vile, a big lie motivated by bigotry.

    No, you didn't. That's why the comment on Afghanistan was in a PS. The blatant historical revisionism (aka lying) about this just gets more and more annoying, so I couldn't help but comment.
     
  5. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Obviously killing someone doesn't directly lead to economic growth. I'm saying the people who went through the era as well as history are willing to overlook the abuses because they credit him for the economic success and his daughter's election in a very paternalistic society is further vindication of his reign by the population. Being a dictator did help in some instances.

    One thing he did that helped out included normalizing relations with Japan and getting increased investment and trade from them. A democratic leader wouldn't have been able to do this politically until a whole lot later given the lingering animosity. He also committed 300,000 troops (as a point of reference, more Koreans died in Vietnam than Americans in Iraq) over the course of the Vietnam War to help the US in exchange for a lot of increased US aid and commitments to investment. A democratic leader wouldn't have been able to commit to the conflict as much as Park did.

    Park disproves your statement about growing the economy while using terror and torture.

    You betray your ignorance with a false dichotomy painting an inaccurate picture. The fact is in the minds of the populace the dictator and economic reform are intertwined and nobody wants a war with North Korea. Your point implying otherwise on North Korea is especially ignorant. South Koreans readily access all the information/various opinions they need to make informed decisions and judgements on their past, present and future leaders. Among other things, its the nation that is most connected to the internet. To characterize this population as brainwashed, while showing a clear lack of knowledge of their country's recent history, because they disagree with your opinion on their former leader, displays blatant ideological extremism. The fact that you needed to come to that conclusion in order to work out your cognitive dissonance shows you are clearly the brainwashed one. Is this personal because he made a habit of casually killing those of your political persuasion?

    We'll have to disagree on Deng. He's acknowledged as a great leader by everyone for the economic modernization even with Tienanmen. The fact that you seem to criticize Deng for being too reformist shows how extreme and ideological you are.

    Furthermore Zero Dark Thirty took a neutral POV on torture. It did not condone or condemn it. Neutral POV is Kathryn Biggelow's style if you look at her previous films. Just because this film decided to have a CIA agent as the protagonist and not condemn torture, doesn't mean it was condoning it or that we should find the film morally reprehensible. People seem to make this mistake all the time, but there is an inarguable distinction. It was a shame on the industry that she was snubbed for Best Director due to the sad, petty political motives.

    Also, I hear former USSR militarists make that same mistake about Afghanistan's history so judge the US not to harshly ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  6. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Look up here, I’m in heaven Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    For what it's worth, Dick Cheney is human scum. He can only be admired in the same way as a Xenomorph or a shark. Perfect at what it does, but nothing to emulate. He helped get us into a moronic war based on lies. The blood of every man, woman and child who died during that war is on his hands and the hands of every politician who didn't try to stop it.

    Also I also saw Zero Dark Thirty. They clearly showed that torture doesn't get results. A traditional interrogation did. Do you understand what that means? One worked, one didn't. That doesn't mean both work. It's simple, binary, a cat could understand it.

    Also I recommend you check out the Governor on Walking Dead. Seems like your kind of hero. He does what needs to be done in order to survive. You kill or you die.
     
  7. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    No need for the condescending tone. It clearly showed that torture softened him up. When they were doing the traditional interrogation right after they tortured him, he figured out that they were lying to him (about giving up information during the torture sessions) and started to not answer, but they threatened him "do you want to get tortured again?" The answer was no and he started to comply.

    The film dramatized the torture but was still excellent overall. The CIA was more systematic and clinical with their torture. They would always ask the subjects control questions, and those that didn't comply would be tortured until they induced a state of compliance. Then they would start asking for the real information with traditional techniques. The name for bin Ladin's courier really did come out of one of the people who was tortured.

    Being systematic and clinical are crucial to the efficacy of torture. If you are just trying to pin something on someone, and want to torture someone for the answer you want to hear, it'll end in disaster. We sent an Al-Qaeda leader to Egypt to be tortured more harshly and that was where the "Saddam is linked with al-qaeda and is helping to get WMD's for them" justification came from. I don't think you can blame the tactic of torture, in and of itself, for this failure, rather I'd blame the desire that existed to pin something on Saddam and the inappropriate application of the tactic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  8. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    yeah thats the problem, inefficient torture.
     
  9. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Okay while I admit that this might not be true, but wasn't the torture stuff something the film made up, becuase I remember an article mentioning inaccuracies in films based on real event mentioning that.
     
  10. Ancient Mariner

    Ancient Mariner Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    What a barbaric, inhuman, and unconscionable post. Disgusting. To think that we can so dehumanize torture into being "systematic and clinical" ... that such robotic efficiency is what justifies and validates the act.

    Shameful.

    Then again, this is from someone posting the defense of a character who executed children, so ...
     
  11. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    yeah.. logic and human decency don't count for much in the mind of someone that idolises dick cheney
     
  12. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    To call the post what you did is gratuitous. I merely added what I felt were appropriate descriptions of how the CIA actually carried out the program, contrary to what is being portrayed in Zero Dark Thirty and other media. Being "systematic and clinical" in one's approach can be the difference between success and failure in many endeavors.

    Being sufficiently "systematic and clinical" in one's procedure can be the difference between success and failure of a drug during clinical trials. In fact, sometimes a drug is rejected based on the trial being insufficiently systematic and clinical, leading to poor results. Once the procedure is corrected by the investigators, and the trial redone, the drug is approved and can go on to save lives. The drug isn't the variable that has changed.

    I should also note that the EIT/torture program run by the CIA has saved lives and led to the name of bin Ladin's courier. This is acknowledged by national security officials of both major parties.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  13. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    I do not "idolize" Dick Cheney. Everyone has their bad decisions and my last paragraph warning about the dangers of not using torture in a correct way could be interpreted as an implicit criticism of him.

    During 9/11, two planes had crashed into the WTC, and one into the Pentagon. There was a fourth plane that was still in play headed toward Washington. Bush was out of the picture and Cheney was the one running things from his undisclosed location. There was a question floating around the room as to what to do about the 4th plane, a situation like this had never occurred. When it got to Cheney, he unequivocally and without hesitation announced that we were going to shoot it down. The other people in the room were amazed at his certainty. The plane went onto crash on its own due to the brave men and women of Flight 93 before the decision could be carried out.

    Cain: "You showed me that you are capable of setting aside your fear, of setting aside your hesitation and even your revulsion -- every natural inhibition that during battle can be the difference between life and death. When you can do this for as long as you have to, then you're a Razor"

    From his decision on 9/11 to his decision to use torture, I would say Cheney fits the criteria.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  14. Ancient Mariner

    Ancient Mariner Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    The only thing amiss with my post is that I should have added "delusional" to the description of yours.
     
  15. randomfan86

    randomfan86 Lieutenant

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    As I've said in my other posts, the torture was definitely dramatized. In real life it was much more systematic and clinical. However, the name of bin Ladin's courier did result from someone who was tortured in real life as well as in the movie so that part is accurate.
     
  16. Neroon

    Neroon Mod of Balance Moderator

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    Re: Defending Admiral Cain from Battlestar Galactica(mentions Dick Che

    Tensions are higher than a summer in Mordor. How about if I close the thread for awhile, and we return to the discussion regarding Cain at a later time? After tempers have calmed and the political nature has been diluted - not to mention the interpersonal sniping - then I can re-open it.


    ETA: After considering the circumstances of the thread and the others it has inspire, I've decided to leave this thread closed. If there is any sincere desire to pursue discussion about Admiral Cain, feel free to start a new thread with aim towards avoiding the pitfalls of this one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
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