Decon blue porn. You know you want it

Discussion in 'Enterprise' started by Plum, Jan 12, 2014.

  1. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I must have missed the decon scene where everyone was naked in response to puerile viewer demands. I could have sworn they were pretty much in gym gear.
     
  2. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Sure, it's just a Nike athletic commercial, right? Not designed to imply sensuality, only athleticism and art.
    ...
    In the seventies, there was a play by Robert Andersen called "You know I can't hear you when the water's running...". In it, a dialogue between a impassioned director and his producer is the main focus.

    The director for artistic reasons wants full frontal nudity by a male actor to intentially show his phallus. The producer states that it's not necessary, merely gratuitous, and likely unwelcome.

    It then degenerates into a discussion about the real purposes of showing a real phallus on stage and not being bashful about it. It's really about demystifying the male organ, not as a weapon, but as a point of ridicule from a male and female perspective.

    While it's fine to show a vagina or a breast on stage within the play, the director argues that there's a double standard since the penis is somehow frightening. A vagina is considered passive and fine as a result, while a penis is active and menacing.
    ...
    We haven't much changed those beliefs within drama. This is why it's extremely rare to see full frontal male nudity. We're afraid to depict it, and only once in a while will some brave actor in film show it.

    On the other hand, should nudity be seen unless there's a rationale for it? Some would like to see it, others not, but from a writing perspective you don't show things on stage or screen unless there's an intentional reason that furthers the story.

    And the discussion is timely because of the controversy of Girls featuring Lena Dunham. It is different though, for in the actress' mind, she's not exploited and took offense at a critic asking why she appeared nude so many times. In her mind, she felt that the critic was objecting to her physical appearance, something which I don't think was an issue at all.

    Nudity can be seen under all manner of circumstances, and especially if it in keeping with displaying the freedom of the character as they routinely walk about their home.

    I think you'd have a hard time justifying the decon scenes from a writing perspective. However a scene is written, it's not going to make sense to the actor, or the director, if it doesn't result in something happening. Otherwise we'd have random blocking on stage like jump roping, genuflecting, pirouetting. You'd likewise have odd instances of costuming for no discernable reason as well.
     
  3. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No one has said it wasn't a gratuitous scene. It's just that some of us don't care that it was a gratuitous scene. The clumsy tackiness of it is what bothers me, not the perv part. Oh and that we didn't get to see Phlox in his blue undies. We got to see his tongue, his toes, his back.. stick that man in some hot pants! I will personally volunteer to decontaminate him :D
     
  4. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Actually John Billingsley (Phlox) disrobed in decon with T'Pol. He'd also brought in a curtain for privacy and explained that not all species are comfortable with being nude in front of others. This being an interesting aspect of a species who displayed a sexual openess even frankness in polygamous relationships.

    He did take his shirt off and walked around demonstrating not only a pouching belly but mild gynecomastia. It was pretty fearless but unnecessary.
    http://www.trektoday.com/news/210104_02.shtml

    Now imagine a realistic decon scene in which not a "hawt" guy is the one you decontaminate, but a rather rotund male that you dislike, while he caresses your body with gel in kind. Welcome or not? I doubt you'd find it welcome. Instead it would be creepy especially if the ages differences were great and the woman an ingenue.
     
  5. HopefulRomantic

    HopefulRomantic Phloxist Moderator Moderator

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    For nudity? That would be a big yes, methinks.

    But really, add up all the dopey immature decon and underwear scenes on Enterprise and you have... what, 5% of the total four seasons? When I think of ENT, I think about early explorers and scheming Vulcans and Shran and the Xindi war. I think of Archer's reaction to hearing about the decimation of his race in "Twilight," Trip finally breaking down over his sister in "The Forgotten," Archer scanning records of the dead in "Shockwave" while holding Porthos, T'Les dying in T'Pol's arms in "Awakening," Archer making an impassioned plea to the Organians to show mercy to his crew in "Observer Effect." I don't think, oooooh, deeeecon.

    Personally, I think it's because societies are still largely male-dominated.
     
  6. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's a shame we didn't see Phlox in all his glory.. yeah give me my HBO Star Trek. Male nudity has a long way to go, though it's definitely on the rise *cough*

    Eric Northman's full frontal nudity (IN THE SNOW) was the highlight of True Blood for me.. what a finale for the penultimate season. I'll take that kind of thing over Trek's "snicker snicker Risa snicker" stuff. I am holding out for a new, 13 eps of quality a season, Trek series that takes a jump into edgier, snappier current tv and that includes cranking up the sexual content to.. actual content.

    OH and the person I really want to decontaminate is Soval :adore:
     
  7. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Well, HopefulRomantic, address the creepy decon situation example above...if you dare.

    Gratuitous nudity doesn't benefit Star Trek on standard tv channels. It might increase viewership on film channels or adult themed channels like HBO.

    I'd rather discuss the many wonderful examples, or see those fantastic scenes, than any decon moment. But I did think some of the tender intimacy scenes between T'Pol and Trip were welcome additions and tastefully done.
     
  8. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Why, may I ask, do you pick 1966 as a turning point?
     
  9. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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  10. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    I'm well aware of when the original series debuted.

    I asked the question because Star Trek was hardly a turning point for female roles on screen.

    Even Nichelle Nichols, who has been known to exaggerate the importance of her role over time, complains that all she did was operate the switchboard and say, "Hailing frequencies open."
     
  11. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Readers might want to read this article:
    http://www.ibiblio.org/jwsnyder/wisdom/trek.html

    I think we have to look at the whole history of women on television, as well as people of color, and consider that in the mid sixties the Space Race was on. Astronauts were the elite of American society.

    While Nichole Nichols wished for more lines or dramatic opportunities, the reality was Star Trek featured women in prominent roles, sexualized to be sure, but still in a position of high status. To also have a black person within that role as well was unheard of, or at least extremely rare.

    Some people are always going to criticize and say that not enough was done. I think that is very unfair.
     
  12. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Roddenberry went from having a woman in a position of command in the first pilot, to having them be nurses, switchboard operators, and secretaries in the series proper. This wasn't at the behest of the studio or the network, but was his choice, probably because he didn't want to recast the role his mistress (later, second wife) played in that initial pilot.

    The article you've linked to makes a number of assumptions based upon the Roddenberry-propagated myth of Star Trek that have been debunked by other sources (some, like Joel Engel's biography of Roddenberry, published before the article was in 1995). It's also a little mean towards Grace Lee Whitney, especially in light of what we now know about her exit from the series (admittedly, unknown in '95).

    Really, picking 1966 as a turning point when it comes to women's roles because of Star Trek if you actually "look at the whole history of women on television" doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This is not to say that there was gender equality on television in the '60s (or even today) -- but women were getting better roles than Uhura, Chapel, and Rand on other shows that aired the same year as Star Trek (or before).
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  13. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Well I don't agree with all his assertions, and he might certainly disagree with my own.

    I'm hardly a fan to such a degree that I have read copious books on the subject, or an archivist in any way with Star Trek politics.

    I can only speak from personal experience, and from the lens of seeing real change that occured from that period onward. That doesn't mean Star Trek is the catalyst for that change, but it did play a cultural role in altering perceptions.

    Roddenberry isn't Star Trek, but played an important role. Culturally it's a collaborative effort by crew, actors, techs, writers, as well as countless fans who kept the spirit of it alive.

    We're influenced by art that appears from a study of the humanities, but as any good student of American culture knows (and there are actually classes in that), popular culture has been as important to societal change. Within a classroom setting, discussion about things like Central Park (NYC) by the elite and the wealthy are often contrasted with things like Coney Island. The elite did those things for cultural uplift to the "great unwashed" (newly arriving Southern European immigrants) which resulted in things like gymnasiums. Popular culture resulted in things like nickelodeons and the new entertainment industries (cinema and later television) that this spawned.

    Television since it had broad appeal, and was welcomed into the living room of singles and families, ended up being hugely influential and drove not only things like the opposition to the Vietnam War, but also changing gender roles in the workplace, the acceptance of minorities within suburbs (not merely regulated to the urban regions), and even slow acceptance of homosexuals.

    These are gradual processes, sometimes infuriating ones because they're as slow as molasses. When you get old like me, then I think you don't know any more, you've just been around and exposed to so many things, and are reflective of that change. You can see progress even if it's at a snail's pace.
     
  14. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Some days I just go off into my own private fantasy of what Trek would be like on HBO..

    [​IMG]

    I mean, you have ALIENS. With alien parts and alien libidos, really an ultimate new frontier. And all we get of that is snickering, unpleasant Klingon broken bones we are supposed to think is hot?!! and a bunch of fucking angst thanks to Pon Farr and repression out the wazoo.

    Phlox was fun. I would like to see a series set on the seedy underbelly on Denobula that Phlox talked about. Denobulan soap opera, with crime, where you need a chart to keep track of all their marriages.

    Enough with nebula behaving badly. Give us a people based series.
     
  15. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Teacake, as far back as Photoshop 3 (1994) there were graphic artists and amateurs making celebrity fakes of the Star Trek cast.

    Some actress (not from Star Trek) in Hollywood as a gag would put up her celebrity fake nudes on her friend's computer as screensavers.
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    uhh.. yes?
     
  17. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm just pointing out that that form of lurid material has been around forever, something which you've implied you wished to see within Star Trek.

    Gosh the same is true of the earliest fanfiction, much of which was homosexual erotica about Kirk and Spock, which invokes giggling and not very erotic at all.

    If you want it for a tv show, you're probably going to have to wait for a good time.
     
  18. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think Denobula: Underbelly is full of potential. The marriages! The scandals! The drug trafficking! AND best of all it takes place in a future on an alien planet with an alien species and of course guest species who involve themselves in the storyline. I don't plan for it to be "lurid", I plan for it to be adult. Enough of Sopranos and CSI's and all them set on earth with boring earth people, let's have excellent Star Trek worlds.

    It will be like the Brown Sector. Only interesting. And not made of cardboard.

    Star Trek so rarely showed any seediness.. we saw Rigel that was cool, we saw that planet in The Seventh, we saw Worf in a smoky bar full of drinkers and Klingon opera. Those were all good Cantina style scenes with multiple races. Quark's never seemed too seedy to me what with Odo lurking around everywhere and the Feds breathing down Quark's neck.
     
  19. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    FWIW....gratuitous sex is a classic Sci-Fi staple.
     
  20. Robbiesan

    Robbiesan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn1OMBK0Xfo[/yt]
    Forbidden Planet 1956
    This scene was a big deal when it was first shown. Though she's wearing a sheer garment and not nude, it gave every teen boy a thrill. It was tastefully done.