D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by kgartm1185, Aug 8, 2013.

?

Which class of ship is more powerful?

This poll will close on Apr 17, 2027 at 9:34 PM.
  1. Galaxy class

    51.9%
  2. D'deridex class

    48.1%
  1. Santa Garrus

    Santa Garrus Calibrating the Holidays Premium Member

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    For me, The Galaxy class is the stronger design. The huge gap between the upper and lower hulls is very nice to look at, but (to me) an enormous tactical weakness. Penetrate the shields, then just shoot a bunch of photon torpedoes into the center and explode them in the gap, tear the ship apart. All ships have structural weaknesses, but the Galaxy balances them better with greater maneuverability and the saucer separation ability.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why would an empty space be a structural weakness? Emptiness is the best armor imaginable - the most powerful weapons in the universe are impotent against it!

    In any case, the E-D has an identical gap there. It just lacks a roof! Why would a roof-less cavity be superior to a roofed one?

    I don't think there's any indication that the Galaxy would be more maneuverable than the D'deridex, at warp or impulse or thrusters or whatnot. (And saucer separation is so rarely done that we could statistically argue the Romulan ship can split in three pieces, too, and we just never see it happen. Although what good the separation would do to either ship is not particularly well explained.)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Santa Garrus

    Santa Garrus Calibrating the Holidays Premium Member

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    There's 6 parts of the warbird, the "head," dorsal hull, ventral hull, aft hull and warp nacelles. With it being so symmetrical combined with that gap, a photon explosion inside that gap damages the entire ship. There's no corresponding part of the Galaxy class that does that. This damage would literally push the sections of the ship apart.

    The fact that they didn't separate the saucer all that much is more of a budgetary issue for sets and special effects than it was a tactical choice. Why the separation is good is the fact that it offers 2 targets for the enemy to hve to deal with. If in combat with a single warbird, the warbird has the option to cloak to attempt to get the drop on the ship. With two targets, the warbird de cloaks, goes after one, leaving itself vulnerable to flanking attacks.
     
  4. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The aft section of the Galaxy only lacks the roof and the stern; any explosion within would certainly push the sections that exist (the bow, the nacelles and the bottom) apart if it could do the same to the D'deridex.

    The presence of the roof on the Romulan ship won't make the blast ricochet or anything - that sort of stuff would only work inside a dense atmosphere (and it wouldn't work too well there, either, as the gigantic holes in the Romulan ship would simply allow the blast force to escape). It's simple out there in space: if the blast wave rips off a nacelle, it does so to a Galaxy and a D'deridex nacelle alike.

    The two-target approach to saucer separation doesn't seem too practical. The Fed ship separates; the Romulan ship warps away, then goes invisible. What does the Fed ship do? The saucer can't warp - will it be left behind? But then the Romulans return and blast the saucer to pieces while the stardrive section is away and can perform no flanking attack. Will the saucer be docked? But then the separation was for naught.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  5. Santa Garrus

    Santa Garrus Calibrating the Holidays Premium Member

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    Actually, the Galaxy class has the roof piece as well, it's just not right above the basement, which is my point. Torpedoes create strong shockwaves so besides the basic damage from the photon warhead is the shockwave from the blast which would affect nearly the entire ship.

    The 2 target approach would work well against the warbird, since warp drive is the most useful in entering or leaving battle, the fact that the saucer is restricted to impulse in a battle is not as big of a problem. Also, its shape would make it difficult to target.

    With the exception of reshuffling personnel to the Battle Bridge, it doesn't seem that separating the ship would take all that much longer than a warbird dropping its shields and cloaking.
     
  6. The Entire Bee Movie But

    The Entire Bee Movie But Badass Admiral

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    Size comparison debate!

    [yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0XQwazkx10&feature=kp[/yt]
     
  7. Runetouch

    Runetouch Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Although we have never seen a one on one between the two ships, I'd say the Galaxy class
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In the vacuum of space?

    If your ship (or your shields) is not impacted by the actual blast, you are untouched.

    :)
     
  9. Santa Garrus

    Santa Garrus Calibrating the Holidays Premium Member

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    I don't know if that's 100% accurate in real science, (I'm no scientist) but in the Trekverse, shock waves caused damage.
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There would be no added vulnerability from having the roof: any shockwave would simply obliterate everything in its path, or then not. On the Starfleet ship, the shockwave of a torpedo detonated between the nacelles would meet the nacelles, the secondary hull and the primary hull, and those would be destroyed, or not. On the Romulan ship, it would additionally meet the roof piece and the stern piece, which would also be destroyed, or not. Their actual placement would not be relevant there - in both designs, all components would be equidistant from the detonation point anyway, which is the only thing that matters.

    It's a massive problem, as the saucer can neither flee from battles nor join them. Any separation maneuver would simply result in half the Starfleet ship being left behind, useless, while the Romulan ship would remain intact and free to maneuver in all situations.

    It's the shape of a dartboard. That's the easiest shape in the world to target, for a given volume.

    In contrast, half the shots aimed at the Romulan ship would just pass harmlessly through. :devil:

    According to the episodes, cloaking or decloaking takes about three to five seconds, tops. Separation after the personnel shuffling is completed takes about a dozen seconds in the abbreviated version of "Arsenal of Freedom", and longer in "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Best of Both Worlds".

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. Santa Garrus

    Santa Garrus Calibrating the Holidays Premium Member

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    I'm afraid I have to disagree again, in the warbird design, the whole ship is equidistant to the detonation point. In the galaxy class, part of the ship is further away,the fact that there's more distance, plus more ship between the bow of the ship and the blast point. The roof being directly over the basement means that the properly detonated blast would have the very real possibility of ripping the roof and the basement apart from the rest of the ship. If that is accomplished, the "Head" of the warbird will either be thrown from the rest of the ship or simply left drifting. Either way, game, set and match to the Galaxy.

    In TNG battles, warp is primarily used in getting to and away from the battlefield. In TOS, warp was used to maneuver in combat.

    If in an impulse battle between a warbird and a galaxy class ship, he warbird would be at a disadvantage because of the option to separate and become two targets. enabling to ability to surround the warbird. Also, if the warbird cloaked and intended to strike again, when it decloaked, it would likely only have optimum firing position on one of them, leaving the other to defend or inflict damage at that time.

    Actually, the dartboard shape only works if the warbird is above or below, if the saucer and a warbird are face to face, the saucer is a smaller target.

    The shield bubble is the key point. The saucers shield bubble would cover it, while the warbirds would cover the gap area, making it much easier to hit. And again, once it's shields are down, you may not agree on this point, but torpedoes passing through and detonated at the right moment, would do severe damage.

    All of those instances involved time out of combat for preparation. So the crews were already reshuffled, however on a Red Alert, it is likely that a standby crew would take stations on the battle bridge in case separation was called for. Also, a Red Alert specifically calls for civilians to return to quarters and personnel to take their stations, which should be accomplished within a couple of minutes. Would it take longer to separate the saucer than to cloak? Yes. I don't think it would be the deciding factor of the battle.

    The weaknesses of the Warbird design and the two target issues would be the deciding factors.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, not really. The saucer diameter of the Federation ship is not significantly greater than the "chord" or length of the bird-head of the Romulan ship. If anything, the massive size of the Romulan vessel will mean that in absolute terms, every part of it is farther away from this postulated detonation point than in the Federation equivalent.

    http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa302/RogueVulcan/Star_Trek/Ship_Images/Romulan/Warbird_Sizes.jpg

    Quite the opposite - the warbird would use the very capacity you establish, the use of warp to disengage from a battle, to leave the saucer behind and completely eliminate her from the equation. All the Galaxy would "achieve" by splitting would be some time wasted with the split and the subsequently necessary reattaching.

    (This assuming that the saucer does not have a warp engine of its own. But both "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Arsenal of Freedom" actually establish that the saucer can move at high warp for a considerable length of time, and accelerate to that speed from sublight or standstill using only their own engines.)

    Since the saucer is never separated in any battle (save for the Borg one where a decoy function is first planned, and a double-decoy function later executed, and nobody really intends to destroy anything with the force of weapons), I doubt Starfleet sees any merit in using saucers for combat. Why that would be, we don't know for sure, but it could be that saucer weapons are no good after separation.

    Naturally, the warbird would fire from any direction other than the edge. Which is most directions. Statistically, the flat saucer is the largest target imaginable for a given volume, the fairly irrelevant special scenario of edge-on engagement notwithstanding.

    And yes, the saucer can no doubt pivot to present an edge. But the warbird can maneuver apace with the pivoting easily enough. Linear acceleration has never been much of a problem for starships at sublight, so the angular velocity of the flipping saucer would probably meet its match.

    Do Romulan ships have shield bubbles? Skintight shielding seems the norm in DS9; in TNG, we never really see warbird shields in action.

    In any case, the warbird is so big that it's easier to hit no matter what - but this is hardly relevant when starships have a 100% hit rate against all targets, including wildly maneuvering tiny fighters.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. spacedock1

    spacedock1 Ensign Red Shirt

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    Case for D'deridex Class warbird: 1) cloaking device technology
    case against D'deridex Class warbird:1)Federation can use Tachyon detection Grids to detect cloaked ship.(TNG:redemption part 2)
    2)Even with perfected cloaking technology the romulan cloaked vessel can still be detected by the federation using telepathic races such as the Betazoids to detect their thoughts.( Star trek :Nemesis)

    3)D'deridex Class warbird is powered by quantum singularity.Quantum singularity disappears unless continually fed matter.

    Case for Galaxy Class: 1)saucer separation . The secondary hull/battle section diversifies the immediate danger in that non essential personnel can be evacuated in primary hull while secondary hull tackles threat.
    2)Galaxy class ships use Matter/anti matter in their warp core.This can be jury rigged into a weapon.Contrast this with the romulan method to achieve warp flight.
    3)Navigational deflector dish can also be improvised into a weapon(TNG:Best of both worlds part 2)

    Case against galaxy class: 1) smaller size.But is smaller size a weakness? as was mentioned in an earlier in the thread,USS Voyager,an intrepid class vessel, could take out much larger kazon vessels on its its own(VOY: Caretaker)

    So on the basis of these factors i would say that while a warbird may look threatening 'its bark is worse than its bite'. The little evidence that exists suggests the galaxy class can easily match a D'deridex class warbird.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  14. RunawayStarShip

    RunawayStarShip Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Andrew Probert designed the D'deridex-class warbird to be 4400 feet long, or 1341 metres... which is larger than either illustrated comparison. "1041 metres" looks like a typo. In terms of volume, it is more than 4 times bigger than a Galaxy-class starship. That's a lot more room. I'm sure that a lot of it is oversized equipment for a quantum singularity, but there should be enough left over for more weapons and shield generators.

    As for the quantum singularity disappearing eventually when not fed matter, that's a good thing. A warbird struck in its power generation system loses power, but could survive on batteries for a little while. A starship struck in its warp core suffers destruction.

    In "The Enemy", Picard was not the least bit worried about saber-rattling against Tomalak. Likewise, Tomalak was not the least bit intimidated by Picard.

    Neither ship directly engaged in battle against each other (although in "Tin Man', a warbird severely weakened the Enterprise-D's aft shields while Picard chose not to fire back), but they have fought common enemies during the Dominion War. Pre-Dominion War, no Alpha Quadrant vessel stood a chance against the Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Hadar", "The Die is Cast"). By the last episode of DS9, Federation, Klingon, Romulan, and Cardassian starships were destroying Jem'Hadar attack ships with single shots.

    During the First Battle of Chin'toka, the orbital weapons platforms outright destroyed medium-sized ships that were hit (Excelsior-class and Akira-class ships come to mind). Smaller ships that could evade fire survived (the Defiant). Larger ships that could take a beating also survived when hit, but took notable damage (the USS Galaxy herself). A D'deridex-class warbird was also under fire, but I can't remember whether it survived or not.

    Now, it really is up in the air which starship is better in combat (given the same crew effectiveness), but in terms of sheer strength, the ship that's more than 4 times bigger probably isn't going to be the underdog.
     
  15. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I love that huge vertical warbird Probert originally wanted--we got to see it in a calander at least.