Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by kgartm1185, Aug 8, 2013.
They came from the tech manuals, a source you yourself have quoted in previous posts.
It doesn't come from the TNG technical manual. Which was written by two people associated with the show (Rick Sternbach & Mike Okuda).
The proof that it is bigger in volume is right in front of your eyes. If you want to insist that it is built out of lighter materials, feel free - but IMHO that is utterly idiotic.
FWIW, the DS9 Tech Manual mass figures are based on a fundamental error in thinking: they are proportional to the length of the starship. But starships are not cigar-shaped, and the mass should be proportional to at least the square of the length if not the cube...
Just look at the beak of the D'deridex and the back, clearly more interior space than a galaxy glass, thing is HUGE
Summary of both sides of this argument... I'm right, you're wrong, even though I have no proof.
I said tech manuals which means it could have been any of them, and I know it wasn't from the TNG tech manual, thank you for stating the obvious.
I was really hoping that you could back up your statement by mentioning which technical manual your numbers come from?
About the mass of each ship.. Do we have canon knowledge about the materials the Romulans and the Federation use? Is it possible that the Romulans for example might use lighter but equally durable alloys to build their ships?
I didn't get that impression at all. If anything, TNG attempted to portray their technological level as essentially the same. Unlike all other powers, where the rival was shown to be weaker (this includes Klingons and certainly includes Ferengi and Cardassians).
Well, no one knows what else was in the Treaty of Algeron. It redefined the Neutral Zone and it prevented the Federation from using cloaking devices. Roddenberry said that cloaks were antithetical to the federation, so they might not have seen it as a huge loss. The Romulans don't want the Federation using cloaks because it helps them preserve an advantage. The Romulans can go freely into the Neutral Zone, the Federation generally stays to their side. There's no reason to think the anti-cloaking provision was out of fear rather than just preserving an advantage.
There's not enough evidence one way or the other to say. Tin Man seems to be the episode that considered technical capacity the most. It makes clear that the Enterprise is faster than a Romulan Warbird. On the other hand, Romulan disruptors seemed effective at incapacitating the Enterprise even with shields. Romulan shield capacity wasn't tested (I can't think of an episode where a Galaxy class fired on a Romulan Warbird). Overall, probably not enough to go on. I think it's fair to say they can both destroy each other (hence the whole Balance of Terror, Mutually Assured Destruction themes).
We all know what a Galaxy and a D'deridex look like, and if we didn't before, this thread has pictures. Many of us probably own Micro Machines models of both, even. It's not rocket science to establish the volume of each ship (with Micro Machines or ERTL kits, you can do the Archimedes thing; with 3D computer models, you can just click a button), and then to scale the sizes up or down to see what really happens.
Here's a helpful page for a detailed analysis of starship volumes (excessively detailed for the purposes of this thread, but still):
The Romulan ship needs to be scaled down quite a bit from the 1300m estimate used in that chart to match the 5,800,000 cubic meter size of the Galaxy... Essentially, even the 1000m version would be twice as bulky as the Federation ship.
Beyond this, it's speculation city, with material densities quite possibly well exceeding that of solid lead (that's the only way Kirk's old ship could approach Scotty's stated "nearly a million gross tons" mass). Starships are exotic beasts, and would be fully justified in packing exotic materials, including impossible ones; warp coils do impossible things, after all...
Even if the D'deridex is smaller volume wise than the Galaxy, it still doesn't reason that it would be less powerful or would be less efficient in combat. The Galaxy is a "multi-mission explorer" while the D'deridex is pretty much a straight warship from everything I've seen on TV.
So all those things we see as part of the Galaxy (family quarters, holodecks, arboretums, science labs, classrooms) likely don't exist or exist in far smaller quantities on the D'deridex. So that is volume that they can dedicate to power generation, shield emitters, cloak emitters and weapons systems.
...Wouldn't be so sure about it. The D'deridex is probably just about the only type of Romulan ship that gets to travel abroad (for any appreciable distance before getting caught for the illegal act, that is), so the Star Empire would certainly wish to have exploration gear aboard!
Even if the purpose is to seek out and destroy new life and civilizations, the seeking out part calls for dedicated instrumentation.
Which is why I said "likely don't exist or exist in far smaller quantities on the D'deridex".
DS9 Tech manual, but since it wasn't writen by members of the show, it probably isn't true.
In the end it's published speculation. Speculation, no matter how fancily presented, does not equal fact.
We can't say that the D'deridex was a "straight warship" as it was never stated to be only a warship. Anyways, a ship that large would have to have some other purpose, especially since it was the only ship seen other than the science and scout ships.
Written by Rick Sternbach and Doug Drexler. Both people who have actually worked on the various shows.
Unless someone had evidence to the contrary, I think it's safe to assume the D'deridex is a warship. I'm not sure they'd call it a "warbird" just because.
I really don't think they'd send a ship into the Neutral Zone or in support of an invasion that couldn't hold its own in a firefight.
I am not saying it would be an easy win for a Galaxy class at all, just that I get the impression the Romulan Warbirds are overall inferior technologically speaking (not just talking shields and weapons, but all technology) to the Galaxy class ships and newer. But inferior tech doesn't necessarily mean under the right circumstances, a Warbird couldn't defeat a Galaxy class. My reasoning being completely subjective, but if a Galaxy class ship is a multi role, peace keeping ship and a Warbird is all warrior, yet both are comparable in terms of combat, that tells me that over all, the Feds have better technology as it is better equipped for not just warfare, but exploration (better tech and more research labs), has the ability to offer comfortable living space to even the lowliest of its crew, and even by your citation of Tin Man, has better speed. Not being as bulky, it's reasonable to believe that the Galaxy class is more maneuverable than the Warbird, too.
As for the cloak provision of the Treaty, if maintaining their cloak superiority is so important to the Romulans, for me at least, that tells me that they are very reliant on the Cloak to counter Federation ships. Conversely, that tells me that the Federation isn't worried enough about Romulan tech to object to having to give up the rights to cloaking tech. Put another way, unless the Federation was defeated by the Romulans during some war, and the Romulans dictated terms where the Federation had no choice but to abdicate rights to developing cloaking devices, then it seems to me that the Federation is confident enough that their technology is sufficiently superior to handle the Romulans, to not only allow the Romulans cloaks, but to feel they don't need to have cloaks, themselves. For example, during the Klingon Civil War, the Feds demonstrated they have the means to track cloaked ships.
Again? Is this based on anything? The impression I've got is the opposite. The reason is that, when a species has inferior technology, they've taken care in the show to demonstrate this. For example, the Federation could read Cardassian transponder codes. I believe they flat out said that a Galor class was inferior to a Galaxy class (while describing it as still "top of the line."). Ferengi ships were definitely shown to be inferior (as their technology as a whole) in spite of initial speculation that they were equal. Romulans, on the other hand, were never shown to be inferior. Slower, yes, but that was pretty much it. Again, what's your impression based on?
I don't think it's reasonable to suggest either ship is noteworthy when it comes to mobility, especially when compared to Klingon Bird of Preys, the Defiant, etc. DS9 battles are usually the best indicator of mobility.
The Federation gave up territory after fighting the Cardassians. They gave it up because they valued peace, not because they were defeated by the Cardassians. If anything, the technological advantage the Federation has over the Cardassians suggest that they could have imposed a unilaterally favorable treaty had they wanted to. It's just in their nature to value peace over conflict.
Now we don't know what happened in the Tomed Incident. We know that the Treaty of Algeron re-defined the Neutral Zone. We know it also prevented the use of cloaking devices. Perhaps the quid-pro-quo of territory change was favorable to the Federation (they did have peace with the Federation for 50 years and may have stayed that way longer but for the Borg attack on the Neutral Zone outposts). Perhaps they just valued peace more than the ability to use cloaks. Because they are predominantly explorers, the Federation prefers to not be cloaked (as Roddenberry put it "Starfleet doesn't sneak around"). If a war broke out against the Romulans, they can always equip their ships with cloaks (after all, given The Enterprise Incident, it seems that even Romulan cloaking devices are fairly compatible. Likewise, the Defiant was equipped with one without difficulty).
Given this, I'm not sure how much of a loss it was for the Federation to not routinely use cloaks. For the Romulans, however, they love cloaks. They also like to gain whatever advantage they can. Having the Federation not use cloaks, to me, is just preserving an advantage, not a sign of weakness. The Romulans are routinely shown as treating the Neutral Zone as their territory. They can patrol along Federation border with impunity because they're invisible. The Federation, on their part, generally stay on their side and enter as a last resort. The Treaty of Algeron could be seen predominantly as a negotiation over the Neutral Zone. To ensure the Federation doesn't enter, they can't have cloaks. It could be as simple as that.
Yes, but they didn't know that when they signed the treaty. They did think there was a slight distortion from the cloak that could be seen (as the Klingon Bird of Prey could be seen in Star Trek III). It turns out they were wrong on that, because Romulan cloaks improved, but that was the belief. However, I don't think the ripple effect could track long-range anyway. Even now, the Romulans are invisible at warp as long as they stay under a certain speed (as seen in The Day is Cast). It's also worth pointing out that the tachyon net was very cumbersome and the Romulans figured out a way to disrupt it fairly quickly (suggesting the science capacity on a Warbird is nothing to laugh at).
I'd also point out, you first said that Romulan ships are weaker because they need the cloak provision to maintain balance and then follow that by saying that the Federation agreed to it because the cloak provision didn't give the Romulans much of an advantage. That's a bit of a contradiction.
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