DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by JD, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Azzy's run is done. The Finches are on the title now and if I understood the post correctly what the above poster was referring to.
     
  2. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Azzy's run is done, but what he did to Wonder Woman is beyond repair. This Wonder Woman is such an anti-femenist 'thing' that it boggles my mind how it could be so well received. I don't care what some greek myth had to say about the Amazons or whether or not they were man-hating barbarians.

    And the handling of Hippolyte. Why destroy this...

    [​IMG]

    Just so you can have Wonder Woman be 'related' to the gods when that never stopped her from dealing with the gods before in a similar fashion? And this exchange...

    [​IMG]

    "It didn't seem important"

    Wonder Woman doesn't even give a crap! And keep in mind that Apollo was established in issue 1 of Wonder Woman to have mentally violated three women at once and after using them, let them fall to their deaths from atop a building. Yet when he takes Zues' throne, Wonder Woman doesn't think it's important.

    Now you're probably thinking "Jeyl, Wonder Woman doesn't know that Apollo did all those things earlier." to which I say "That's the problem!" Wonder Woman isn't the main factor when it comes to what Azzy wanted to tell. He wanted to write about the new Gods with Wonder Woman playing more of a reactionary role than a character who takes the initiative. This did not need to be Wonder Woman.
     
  3. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's only anti-feminist if you consider the Amazons to be the entirety of Wonder Woman and raison d'etre of the book . But you seem to be blaming Azzarello for the excesses of the Finches and DC editorial. I'll just point out post-Crisis/pre-FP, we also had Amazons Attack which also devolved the Amazons into savage bloodthirsty murderers and then you didn't even have the Azzarello origin to blame. It's just seems obvious to me that Azzarello is just a red herring and strawman for many of the fans and their outrage when it's clear the new editorial team that decided to give the book to the Finches are the ones responsible.

    It has nothing to do with myths, but rather the norms and values of the classical world. This is a world where slavery existed, where the idea of human rights didn't exist at all and where the majority of any population were not treated as citizens and were denied basic political rights. Marston's Amazons were derived from the idealization of that world, an idealization that prevailed into the modern age due to the West's fetishization of Greek culture. All Azzarello has done is put the Amazons in the proper context of that world and pointed out that the idealization of that past (and any past imo) was a mistake
    Why is WW being born from clay necessary for her story or intrinsic to her character or necessary for her being in patriarch's world? It's not like the Waynes dying in Crime Alley or Superman rocketed from his world and found by the Kents. The only thing that was necessary to explain Diana's origin and mission is her being an Amazon from Themyscira, the rest of it either the clay or demi-god origin is not necessary and just window dressing.

    We only have the demi-God origin now because the focus of v4 had placed enormous emphasis on mythology and this was the first run of the WW reboot.

    Edit: Much like whether Batman trained under Ducard/Ra's s or whether Superman was born on Krypton or in the birthing matrix on Earth. These are just ephemeral pieces of the mythology that are not important to the character's core. If for example we have a more secret agentish reboot like the O'Neil version, it would probably have been revealed that Diana was really a human child from outside Paradise Island adopted by Hippolyta.

    The entirety of Azz's run on WW related to her conflict with the Gods. Making her one of them was necessary since much of his run was not just about her conflicts with the gods, but how it related to the ideals of family both with the Amazons and the Olympians, but also with the family unit that she had slowly created for herself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2015
  4. Saga

    Saga Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    no comic book character is beyond repair.
     
  5. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    I really have no attachment to the made from clay origin so I didn't mind them making her into a child of Zeus, and I do think making her a demigod did make the whole conflict with the gods a lot more interesting. The Amazon thing is really the only problem I have with Azzarello's run, and I'm not that upset by it. But Azzarello's stuff is the first WW I've read, so I don't have as much of an attachment to the earlier stuff as a lot of long time fans probably do.
     
  6. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If fans hated Azzy's run...they're really going to have problems with Morrison's "Wonder Woman: Earth One" when it comes out in November :)
     
  7. Savage Dragon

    Savage Dragon TheSeeker Premium Member

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    I loved Azzarello's run. The Finches'? Not so much.
     
  8. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    I've been wondering, how much have they changed what Azzarello established? I always hear stories about new teams coming in and totally wiping out the previous teams stuff.
     
  9. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The rumours were that editorial brought in the Finches in order to make the character conform to her appearances outside of Azzy's title so like say how Diana has been portrayed in other books such as Johns "Justice League" and in "Superman/Wonder Woman". More standard. While I don't think they've wiped out everything that Azzy and Chiang established, they've just made her more of how she's been previously.
     
  10. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    I'd heard that was why they were brought in, that was why I was curious.
     
  11. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No. I don't think so. IMO the only reason Finch got the book was because the editor in charge of the book is willing to do anything to keep Finch at DC and put up with all his crap and give him anything he wants. Given DC's recent statements about continuity I don't think they care about character consistency currently. WW is going to have three different takes anyways and God knows no real consistent characterization since you have the Hitch JLA, the Johns-Fabok Justice League and the Finch lead regular book. And I doubt the former two will care to coordinate with the Finch(es).
     
  12. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    That is something I came to appreciate about Azz and Chiang's run. They kept the focus solely on WW and kept the baggage from JL and Supes/WW out of their story. The very first issue under the Finchs had WW stating all the things she was currently doing. He recent appointment as the God of War, her relationship with Supes, the recent Justice League struggles (Post Forever Evil) and the new journey the Finchs had set for her. I said to myself, "damn she's got a lot going on for her/ a lot of balls in the air". It felt more editorially mandated rather then organic from the writers. I doubt Meridith Finch plans on addressing and tying all those threads into her run together.
     
  13. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I understand about the editor part...but I do still think part of the reason they gave him the book in the first place was that they were frustrated with Azzy's run. It was pretty much self-contained and didn't conform with anything outside of his book...this was a constant complaint from fans IIRC as well. I have no doubt it had mainly to do with the editor willing to put up with him and his wife, but I do think Bleeding Cool's report had some merit behind it...because for the most part the book has become mundane and pretty much like crap.

    I'm not saying that Diana has to be elevated to a higher concept or a specific focus to be entertaining...but she does have to be written well, and frankly I do not think he or his wife or whoever is actually writing that book understands how to write properly. I am surprised that I gave them two issues lol.
     
  14. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Absolutely there is a lot of prior history at DC (and Marvel) that do show editors enforce their agendas and ideas by using weak or new writers. But the thing is that goal of making WW conform editorially is more elusive than ever now with multiple take that will be outside editorial's control because who is going to say no to Hitch or Johns.
     
  15. Saga

    Saga Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    i liked the Azzarello run but i did find it a bit jarring that elements like Cheeta, Trevor and the Superman relationship were never mentioned in the ongoing.
     
  16. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They seem to be building on what Azzarello established. The male Amazons, the God of War and the First Born are part of the story still, but so are the JLA and the relationship with Superman.
     
  17. The Lensman

    The Lensman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This whole series has been excellent. When the various worlds were announced, my two most anticipated issues were Pax Americana and Thunderworld with the latter being the one I was most excited for.

    I expected to dislike the Earth-Me one, but it was brilliant as a sorta "Watchmen-lite via Gen Y". I don't think I caught some of the basic nods until a re-read.

    The Ultra Comics issue was just fucking fantastic and mind blowing. I was bummed when I got to the end and read that the last issue is coming out next. I hope it can end the series satisfactorily because there's been little sense of progression of the overall story (as far as I can tell)....more like everything that we've read has been happening roughly at the same time across the various worlds.

    When the last ish comes out I'll probably sit down for a re-read of the whole series.
     
  18. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  19. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ah no.

    It was originally meant for six issues, but given the success it seems Stewart's and Fletcher's term has been extended and they are doing the librarian thing next.
     
  20. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They are changing her clothing style to be more librarian in appearance? My god does that sound like a stereotype or what?