DC's New 52: Reviews and Discussion (Spoilers welcolme and likely)

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by JD, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Johns was a fan of the old post-Crisis continuity. He was definitely not the architect of Nu52 or the Justice League. Most of it especially the Wildstorm elements and stuff like Pandora was because of Harras and Lee. FP was Johns baby, but it wasn't really intended as a reboot, it was the equivalent of what Convergence is now, a placeholder since DC had planned to move out West in 2011.

    The Justice League books were a hodgepodge of influences from Jim Lee (when he was a penciller/backseat writer) , Geoff Johns and Jeff Lemire (after Lee's departure and up to Trinity War/Forever Evil) and probably also Brian Cunningham the editor of the Justice League line.

    The people likely responsible for reboot were probably a) WB corporate for ordering an increase in sales and b) Didio for putting the reboot on the table.


    1) Lot of the New Krypton was due to management. Busiek getting fired for Robinson (before New krypton) and the hastily put together resolution where the Kryptonians were genocided by the US government after the sales on the books went to hell.

    2) Many of the badly put together books were due to my opinion an exodus of editorial talent from DC during the 00s era where many of the good editors at DC were fired or left because of the toxic work environment such as Dan Raspler (fired), Pete Tomasi (went to the writing side) and Wacker (left for Marvel) as well as the firing of Denny O'Neil and replacement with Bob Schreck at the batbooks who would later be the editor for Frank Millar's screed Holy Terror. So you had people like Mike Carlin and Rachel Gluckstern running the JSA books. The former apparently being on record for disliking the JSA and the latter for not being a particularly competent editor.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  2. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    With Jonhs being CIC for DC and having his fingers in so many pies (GL, Flash, JL, Supes, Booster Gold, Aquaman, Teen Titans + JSA (once upon a time) and most events (Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, Flashpoint, Trinity War and Forever Evil). It's hard to know where his influence starts and stops.

    I've read on CBR the reboot was Didio's idea. Likely as a way to help boost sales since so many titles were suffering Post Infinite Crisis.
     
  3. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    IMO Geoff Johns influence pre-FP extended mostly to a) the Brightest Day related material such as Green Arrow/Birds of Prey/Swamp Thing/Firestorm/Hawkman/Aquaman and probably Animal Man (imo Rotworld was probably written as a sort of followup to Blackest Night/Brightest Day by Snyder/Lemire) and b) the Flash stuff (the all-flash book with Wally backups done by Kollins + the Kid Flash book by Sterling Gates). For some reason post-FP he was mostly relegated to Lantern and Justice League and then Jim Lee was calling the shots. I suspect it might be because his job in development started taking more time. Rich Johnston has an alternate theory that management slowly and deliberately limited his creative output (and thus his influence).

    This is probably true. He was the one who likely put the reboot on the table in the first place, but it was probably WB corporate that demanded an increase in sales.
     
  4. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Geoff Johns has been a counterforce to DiDio, Lee, and Harras according to BC. I believe DiDio wanted to do the reboot even earlier than 2011 and before the corporate restructuring happening (this IMO really set the stage for it) but he was blocked or ideas reworked and retooled, and yes in his position he has pushed several characters (most of them obvious if you are aware of his work and what he likes as House of UIster has brought up before and we've discussed in this thread before) but he seems to have countered a lot of DiDio, Lee, and Harras's ideas. The continuity and quality could be a lot worse than it has been IMO without his influence as it has been.
     
  5. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    ^ Didio wanted to use Infinite Crisis as a reboot for the DCU but Johns, Perez, Morisson all countered him. They had a vision for the Post Infinite Crisis DCU and wanted to continue it.

    The Didio tried to latch on several titles and tie-ins to Morisson's Final Crisis book. Which initially wasn't going to be "Crisis" type book. With all the universe, wibbly wobbly going on, Didio sought to use it to change the status quo (again 2 years after Infinite Crisis) of the DCU. Of course this didn't work. Final Crisis (by Morisson) is so self contained that the only changes that carried over were Bruce's "death" and Barry Allen's resurrection. You can skip the entire event and lose nothing.

    You can certainly skip Countdown and all it's tie-in (Search for Ray Palmer, Amazon's Attack, Death of the New Gods). Which were sanctioned by Didio and other editors at DC. In an attempt to "do 52 right". 52 2004-2007, worked because the writers (Johns, Waid, Rucka, Morisson) had control of the story and their vision. Nearly everything mandated by the editors seems to blow up in their faces. Same goes for Marvel, i.e. One More Day and Ultimates. ick
     
  6. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Ultimates was a success though and it was certainly not editorially mandated imo. It's very much a Mark Millar work before he went overboard. OMD showed that 52 was like capturing lightning in a bottle. Marvel got the editor of 52 and threw in some of their best a-list artists and never got sales like 52 did, which used mostly b and c-list artists.

    a) Morrison's Final Crisis was always intended as a "Crisis". It was originally the Hyper-Crisis event he always talked about during the 90s before going off to Marvel. Both the Death of Bruce Wayne and Return of Barry Allen however were "suggested" by Didio. He has said in a letter column he has wanted to resurrect Barry Allen since Infinite Crisis (which suggests that the OYL Flash:FMA book by the writers of the Flash TV Show was originally intended as a Barry Allen book instead of Bart) and again with the JLA/JSA Lightning Saga (which I guess was how he originally managed to get Brad Meltzer to write JLA).

    b) The original sequel to 52 was basically 4 separate ongoing of Multiversity with Earth-2/4/5/10 books by Johns/Rucka/Waid/Morrison with something like Superman Beyond being the culmination and finale of the four books. That was axed by Didio, he apparently did NOT like 52 and the Multiverse stuff according to Mark Waid and openly told the editor (Stephen Wacker) of 52 this and was probably one of the reasons that lead to Wacker leaving for Marvel not to mention he tried to spoil the ending for 52 a month beforehand, which pissed off the writers.

    Also for 52 he rewrote one of the issues (the one with Ralph) and changed what the writers had originally intended which was the resurrection of his wife who had died in Identity Crisis.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  7. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

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    I can't believe Johns was behind the reboot. Every issue of his (pre-reboot) comics are an elaborate love letter to obscure past continuity. Hell, he even took horrible 90s concepts and fixed them! Good on him.
     
  8. Broccoli

    Broccoli Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And here, I disagree. I feel the "Future Flash" story was an issue or two too long. I almost wonder if the writers padded it out in order to not have to start a new story before the Convergence event.
     
  9. Savage Dragon

    Savage Dragon Savage Mod Moderator

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    I don't disagree that overall future Flash story ran a bit long, but his sudden change of heart seemed a bit abrupt to me. One second he's ready to kill and the next he's ashamed of himself. I'd have liked it more if they had introduced him having some doubts about his methods beforehand.
     
  10. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    At the same time though, Johns and other writer's (Meltzer, Winnick, Robsinon, Rucka, Morrison, Waid, Buisek) reverence for the Pre-Crisis continuity and their attempt to blend Post Crisis continuity (1986-2005) with Pre Crisis stories; is what put DC is a position that it needed to reboot 6 years after Infinite Crisis. They couldn't thread the needle as well as they thought they could.


    This resulted in many titles being underwater due to lousy writing and bad storylines. With DC also opening the floodgates when it came to Pre-Crisis continuity. It made things overly convoluted and confusing. Which of course effected sales but the bigger issue was attracting readers. Not just long term fans but new readers. Thinking back to 2007-2010, and I doubt a new reader would know where to start with most DC characters. Not to mention long term fans like myself discontinuing reading certain books.
     
  11. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Back to discussion of books though...I just finished the Ultra Comics issue of "Multiversity" and it was simply outstanding. Morrison is doing incredible work with this and it has by far lived up and exceeded my expectations so far. I normally don't like work with multiple artists, but each artist used has added their own unique special dynamic to their specific issue which has only enhanced the overall experience for me. Just terrific stuff.
     
  12. Savage Dragon

    Savage Dragon Savage Mod Moderator

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    I wasn't crazy about Ultra Comics but I loved the previous two issues. The Guidebook was a lot of fun.
     
  13. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ultra was simply amazing. It was probably the best issue of Multiversity so far and I thought nothing was going to top the Multiversity Guidebook, but Morrison keeps proving me wrong.
     
  14. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I agree. It's been my favourite issue so far with probably "Mastermen" being the second...and the Guidebook is simply amazing. I can't wait to get the deluxe edition in November.
     
  15. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I loved Thunderworld and the Guidebook, and enjoyed Pax Americana (the Charlton Comics/Watchman tribute), but the rest of Multiversity has just been a big confusing mess, at least to me. I'm still not sure who is doing what, or what exactly is happening outside of "Evil Comic book is making people crazy, and some stupid giant eye creatures are destroying stuff". Ultra Comics wins the award for most confusing comic I've ever read, a title Morrison had already won for Final Crisis, but he definitely surpassed himself. Still, Thunderworld, The Charlton tribute and the guidebook made the whole thing worth it, even if the rest of the books range from terrible (The idiotic spoiled brat hero book) to boring (SoS, Mastermen) to nonsensical (Ultra Comics and part of Multiversity #1).
     
  16. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    LOL--I am waiting for all the issues before reading. Morrison is always like good poetry for me--it only gives up its true meaning after multiple readings. I love the Seven Soldiers series and his Action Comics run but I needed to read both of those at least three times before really feeling like I "got it". What's more is that both of those hold up after repeated reads.

    The same goes for his Batman run but that covered way to many issues to read more than twice for me.
     
  17. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

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    <<Thinking back to 2007-2010, and I doubt a new reader would know where to start with most DC characters. Not to mention long term fans like myself discontinuing reading certain books. >>

    That's when I started reading comics again, and I loved the wealth of character and continuity. I loved how complicated it was. It was fun to read a story, meet new people, read up on them in wikipedia or whatnot, and go back with a greater understanding.
     
  18. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think I've mentioned before in the thread but I started getting into DC after an absence when Geoff Johns started his "Action Comics" run. Began getting into stuff heavily at that point again. Really this was when I was getting back into reading again in general with the big two.
     
  19. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Wonder Woman Issue #40

    Believe it or not, there was a time when DC's Amazons didn't hate men. They simply just lived on an island that didn't have any. The Amazons weren't murderers, rapists, child slavery endorsing idiots who couldn't make their own weapons and armor. They were, for all intents and purposes for the DC universe the "good guys". They had a huge sense of love and loyalty to Queen Hippolyte who returned their devotion by declaring that Diana was not only their princess but also their daughter.

    There's none of that here. The Amazons have now been solidified as bloodthirsty man-hating murderers. It's like... hey, you know those boats you used to get here? Well, you can go somewhere else. You can leave the island or we can kill you right here. But no, they simply go right into the mass slaughter of unarmed men.

    To everyone who hated Wonder Woman not having a father and believe that Amazons should be cold-blooded, man hating killers, your wish has been granted. I hope it was worth it.
     
  20. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    That's probably the one thing I do have to agree is a little annoying with Azzarello's WW.