Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by JD, Aug 30, 2011.
I agree, but I don't think those are the things to go in a streamline.
Well, look at how "complex" the Batman series is, we've got Batman, three different versions/stages of a Robin, Batwoman, Batgirl and with Batman, Inc. we add even more. It's a mess.
A complete reboot would boil that all down to bare essentials. Batman and Robin and potentially a Batgirl.
Hell, I'd really argue you don't even need a Robin so make it a tad more practical (and sensible) with him being a teenager and when he gets into his twenties after a few years of comics he goes off to his own comic series and Batman rides it out solo from there.
They continued over Batman's continuity because those books were selling and popular (for the most part) and they didn't want to alienate those fans, same with Green Lantern I stated way back in the news thread that if they didn't carry over Damian or any of the Morrison continuity I would have abandoned DC completely no matter what they did. Frankly they're borderline losing me as a customer as it is. I think if Wonder Woman and Action weren't so damn good, along with Batman I wouldn't care.
Yeah, I realize why they kept all of the Batman continuity. But with four Batman titles (which I'm not sure how they work with one another) I'd think with one of them they could've gone with a cold reboot like they basically did with Superman.
I would really like to see two or three "five years earlier" titles that could fill in a lot of the revised continuity details. I think they would be very popular as well.
But it was the digital angle that brought me back, and it wasn't too hard to find comixology last year.
Yeah I still would like to see a "Smallville" New 52 book about young Clark
Another excellent top ten...I agree with all the points brought up so far and the apparent contradicts pointed out as well.
Alan's point about where Batman Inc is something I brought up a few pages ago. Volume Two has to take place at least sometime after "Batman and Robin" Volume Two the first arc, since Bruce mentioned Damian's killing of Spook and Nobody. Oh and the not finding out about NoWhere yet in Superboy has been maddening and one of the reasons why I dropped the book.
Well, in that case we're talking about two very different things. Batman is bloated, always has been and I agree that he doesn't need four solo titles. However, starting everything from scratch, you also lose a lot more important titles like Teen Titans (which is a top tier DC franchise, even if they don't treat it like that).
And not just that, pretty much any team book since if you're starting everyone out on day one, it's insane to think that they're meeting up and forming teams. And then there are characters whose origins involve being inspired by "modern" heroes. That takes Blue Beetle off the table.
In the end, a total reboot really brings everything from a new 52 to like a new 20. And that's just crazy.
And I completely disagree that you don't need a Robin. Comic fans tend to forget that Robin is just as integral to Batman's history as characters like Alfred, The Joker, and Catwoman (all of whom he pre-dates in appearance). The "Robin Sucks" train of thought is clichéd.
To me, and I'm sure this will be contradicted later, Batman Incorporated happens in the Pre-Flashpoint Universe. There may be mentions of New 52 stuff, but everything in Issue 1 can be reconciled to take place before Flashpoint. And I have a feeling Morrison is going to try his darndest to keep things relatively consistent with Pre-Flashpoint.
^ It's already known that Batman Inc Volume One takes place Pre-52'Verse, but why Alan brought it up in the article is because it is supposed to take place in the New 52 but because of this stupid new timeline we don't really when exactly when. Like I said issue one of Volume two references Damian's incidents with Spooky and Nobody...but really as Alan pointed out this should not have taken place before "Batgirl".
As Tim Drake said...Batman needs a Robin. He's crucial as the human anchor. Without him Bruce goes off the deep end.
I do agree there are too many Bat books right now. I'd subtract Dark Knight if I was Mike Marts. Possibly take away "Batman and Robin" and give Damian his own solo title
I see no need to eliminate those. Why not have a JLA or Blue Beetle book that "takes place in the future" sort of how AC and Superman tie to one another?
Batman and Robin is actually good. Better than Detective and TDK. Marts only has those two to keep Daniel and Finch on DC's payroll or else they'd go to Marvel or Image.
Unless the writers have a personal connection ala Snyder or Lemire, DC is pretty bad at linking books together because writers and/or editors don't talk to each other. And if they do half the time they are sabotaging each other.
There is an interesting story about how a novelist who was doing a book at DC found that trying to get continuity and story details from the editors was like pulling teeth.
Maybe, but I would have preferred a more vibrant approach.
Agreed, part of what hurts Legion of Super-Heroes is the fact that it ties in with the current DCU. Things like Crisis, Superman's origin, Brainiac's origin, etc. all impact the 31st Century. Not to mention the times the Legion travels to the past (the 20th/21st century has seen visits by multiple Legions).
As far as setting the books in the future, the first problem is, "How far?" That would involve accepting that your characters will age, which DC is reluctant to admit. I honestly don't think we'd ever see the books sync up, those set in the "past" would never be allowed to catch up to when Teen Titans, Blue Beetle, etc. would take place.
The second problem is spoilers. Let's say DC did this and decided at some point Barry would die again. How do you hide the fact that Wally is Flash in the "future" when he's not in the "present"? There's also the problem of who Robin is currently. You can't leave that out of titles like Teen Titans without at some point addressing it in the Batman titles.
Those are just the tip of the iceberg as far as problems.
"Batman and Robin" is a good book...it has gotten better at least, I would make a sacrifice though if I was Batman group editor. The other decision I'd make is get rid of Tony Daniels on "Detective Comics". Not sure who I would replace him with though..maybe Kyle Higgins.
I disagree that being in the future hurts Legion. There have been multiple references over the years to present day story lines but it's not like what takes place in the present actually affects what is going on in the future. The timestream actually seems in constant flux. Besides which editorial just retcons or erases these events and crises as they see fit, as they've been doing since the relaunch anyway.
I feel like the biggest problem with the relaunch is that the people involved in creating it, really wanted it...but didn't really think things through, or really didn't care how readers (old and new) would react to the changes they were going to make. It's just a complete mess.
If they take the approach of constant minor adjustments being made, then, yeah, Legion can work (there have been multiple attempts to do just this), but then, every few years, writers decide they're going to explain everything and the more they explain it, the worse it gets. It does get to be a headache when back in the late 90's, they had to explain why Superman met pre-Zero Hour Cos, Lightning Lad, and Saturn Girl, when some of the post-Zero Hour Legion had been stranded in the past and had met Superman for the first time. While it was an interesting and creative dodge (The Time Trapper was messing with time to teach the Legion a lesson they would need to defeat the Dark Circle, and therefor had brought back the pre-Zero Hour Legion temporarily, which just so happened to coincide with Superman bouncing into the 30th century at one point in his career), it could have been fixed with a smile/wink/and nod that the same scene had happened differently than we saw it, with the "current" Legionnaires taking the place of their previous incarnations.
I agree with your comments about creators. While I am happy with the output by Geoff Johns, Scott Snyder, and Jeff Lemire, (and, to a lesser extent, Grant Morrison on Action), I just can't get excited about titles written by Dan Jurgens (as I've gone into detail earlier in this thread about) or Rob Liefeld, to name two creators off the bat ("bat," not "Bat," but I guess you can add Tony Daniel to that list).
I've had differing opinions of Gail Simone (her Villains United/Secret Six runs are pure brilliance, but I was bored by her "Brightest Day" Birds of Prey and her earlier run on Action Comics), but I was excited about a year ago when DC announced Brian Clevinger on Firestorm. I haven't read Atomic Robo, I've seen scans on various websites, enough to tell it's well written and interesting (someday, when I'm finally done with collecting Sandman and Starman TPBs, I might start collecting Atomic Robo, but I digress). Hearing he was dropped and it would be Gail Simone and Ethan Van Sciver was a bit disappointing. Firestorm has been one of my favorite "B"-level characters (okay, maybe "C"-level) and I thought Stuart Moore did a great job recently, I wouldn't have been sad if they tapped him, again. Firestorm has been one of the titles I've had a hard time getting up enthusiasm for and it's the title closest to the chopping block for me (I've practically done that, since my comic shop doesn't seem to have the last two-three issues in stock and I haven't immediately jumped onto the internet to correct that).
I started buying Teen Titans for my son, and found some interesting parts, but Scott Lobdell has not really helped hook me. Howard Mackie isn't going to get me interested in that corner of the DCU, either.
Another list I agree with...for the most part. A New Who's Who would be awesome. Marvel still pumps out the handbook, I don't see why DC can't do the same and bust out Who's Who again. I believe there were plans to bring it back and they were going to be written by Robert Greenberger but I'm guessing that was abandoned due to the relaunch. While I'm at it...I'd like to see Secret Files and Origins return as well.
I'd rather find things out via actual stories.
That really happens though, plot it so condensed nowadays we rarely find out anything about the characters. I realize too that there are wikipedia out there that do this kind of thing, but I still like the profile books. Just another area of nostalgia for them to try and recapture for sales anyways.
I dunno, Johns has been doing a good job of filling in Aquaman's past.
Indeed. I just know that I love these kinds of books so if DC ever do decide to bring them back, I'll be picking them up.
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