'Dark Frontier' Where the Borg went wrong?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by M.A.C.O., Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Villian decay? And that's why they need that analgesic cream.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  2. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    Villain decay! The fate of all fictional villains, unless of course like the Klingons, they move over to become allies. You know what unchanging villains are; boring!
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  3. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Now with fluoride!
     
  4. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    Yes I would have, because 8472 were poorly executed.

    As for Q destroying a borg ship, well he's practically a god, so it wouldn't be as big a blow, and if TNG had done it, it would have been well written, and served to make Q look even more powerful and menacing, while not harming the borg that much, because of how powerful Q is (above ALL others).

    In voyager we got Q in a bath kissing janeways foot, just as we had him getting floored by sisko in DS9.

    That's the problem, TNG knew how to keep characters and species sacred, Q, The Borg, Lore.

    Granted, there were some comedic moments, but they let it be known, these guys are Dangerous, in a way Voyager never could manage.
     
  5. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I liked how TNG kept the Trill sacred by making them completely different. Oh and they did that with the Ferengi too, they were super sacred in those days. And then there was that great sacred Klingon moment when Worf was dressed like a cowboy on that old west train, that was almost holy that scene.

    But all that aside you know what they took really seriously? Romulan shoulder pads. Those muthas were pure scripture.
     
  6. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    we aren't talking about Trill or Ferrengi though.
     
  7. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Ewww. I just tried to imagine what the child of a Ferengi and a Klingon would look like.

    edit: Best guess with Poser, though there's no good Ferengi-style head morph.
    [​IMG]
    And this is the female model.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  8. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think the way TNG reduced the intelligent and innovative Ferengi to little more than grasping monkeys is a species slander most normally seen in war propaganda posters.

    The other night I had a dream that some Ferengi were giving me a tour of the Divine Treasury, It was dead dull, just piles of gold and shiny crap everywhere but they were very excited. In the middle of this dream I started laughing because they reminded me of those very boring volunteers who give tours of cathedrals and train stations and who are clearly in love with everything they show you in excruciating detail.

    But I did not crush their sacredness with my mehness. I was enjoying their moment in the (reflected) sun.
     
  9. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    that is frightening.
     
  10. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Uh-huh, I suppose if one 8472 ship captured one of the crew, turned them into an 8472 and proceeded to Earth trashing a Starfleet armada until a blatant plot contrivance stopped them you'd think they were executed right?

    The silly thing was that the TNG crew was afraid of the Borg in the first place. They already knew there were nastier things out there than them. Worse things than them had been stopped in the past.
     
  11. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I posted this somewhere else, but I think it's appropriate here as well:
    I went and counted the number of times that the Borg appear in Voyager, and, not counting holographic representations or hallucinations, came up with a grand total of only 17 direct, actual run-ins between them and Voyager (16 with live Borg and one with a Borg corpse). Given that the Delta Quadrant is the Borg's home base/territory, the amount of times they had direct run-ins with Voyager really ought to have been much, much higher.

    I've never personally bought into this whole idea that Voyager 'ruined' the Borg, BTW; the series 'humanized' them and made it easier to justify using them as a recurring antagonist group akin to the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Kazon, Viidians, Hirogen, and Dominion (among others), which, IMO, is exactly what ought to have happened, as it would've been unrealistic for Voyager to only encounter the Borg a handful of time - even with the size and expanse of the Delta Quadrant - given that it had been previously established that the Borg were capable of ranging far and wide and given that, as noted, the DQ is the species' home base/territory; it would've also been just as unrealistic for the Borg to continue to remain the nigh-invincible, unstoppable antagonistic super-force they were portrayed as in TNG because, unlike in that series, Voyager would, by necessity, likely keep running into them and would therefore learn from each encounter with them and logically become better equipped to deal with them, with the reverse also being true.
     
  12. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    You kidding?

    In TNG, they had the entirety of starfleet coming up with weapons, defences, even a purpose built starship in the defiant.
     
  13. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ When you're in close proximity to an enemy, you're in a much better position to learn how to accurately and efficiently deal with that enemy. If the Borg had remained the unstoppable force they were portrayed as being in TNG, even with Voyager learning from each encounter with them, we would've ended up with a virtual stalemate and things would have gotten very stale, story- wise, very quickly.

    Re: the Defiant, it might've been designed with the purpose of fighting the Borg in mind, but, IIRC, it didn't fare too well in its one encounter with them.
     
  14. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    We don't know how long the Defiant was involved in the battle with the Borg Cube. It could have been minutes, hours, or days. It certainly looked impressive in terms of handling punishment in FC.

    We can see Starfleet was much more prepared this time for the Borg since they were already beefing up their ships for dealing with the Dominon, the cube was heavily damaged this time compared to the cube from BOBW.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I believe the Defiant Class in opposition of the Borg is supposed to be a fleet of ships.

    Imagine 15 Defiants in formation concentrating their firepower.

    Resources to construct

    1 Sovereign Class Ship = 15 Defiant lass Ships.

    Firepower

    1 Sovereign Class Ship = 5 Defiant Class Ships.

    Vulnerability.

    1 Sovereign Class Ship = 1 Defiant ships.

    :)

    The Defiant is a couple massive guns strapped to a speedy warp drive.

    Because it's so much huger is it might actually be easier for the Borg to assimilate a Sovereign class vessel? But if it's only equally as easy to assimilate/lose a Defiant as a Sovereign, when it costs 15 times the resources to build a Sovereign it's wholly more economical to only take the little ships into battle against the Borg if any 5 little ships have the same fire power at barely a third the price in resources.
     
  16. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Defiant wasn't meant to fight the Borg all on its own, it was meant to be part of a new Battlefleet of Starships for fighting the Borg and it got shelved because they came up with superior vessels without any of the Defiants' flaws (the Sovereign, the Akira, the Norway, the Sabre and Steamrunner classes).

    The only reason they were scared of the Borg was because at the time they didn't know much about them.
     
  17. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    Nothing to do with one cube totalling an entire fleet then?
     
  18. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    An entire fleet the Borg were prepared for, thanks to Locutus. And because Starfleet didn't know squat about how to fight them and this was their first major engagement with them. And most of those ships being older vessels to begin with.

    I mean heck, the original script for "First Contact" had there being a fleet of Borg ships engaging a Starfleet armada, not one Cube. With most of the Borg fleet being destroyed in normal combat.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A modern day US aircraft carrier vs. the Spanish Armada.

    Hell martin Sheen wimped out with The Final Countdown.

    Time Tunnel or stop Pearl Harbour from being decimated by the Japanese?

    That would have been a fantastic fight to watch.
     
  20. Infern0

    Infern0 Captain Captain

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    well that would have been a joke.

    You have to remember the context with which the Borg were introduced.

    to quote Q:
    The Borg were NOT introduced as some villain of the week, the whole purpose of them was to be something beyond what starfleet could realistically handle. Sure they could scrape an even numbers encounter with the romulans, barely, but the borg were supposed to be LEVELS above that. They have massive, technologically advanced ships, the collective consciousness and experience of millions. They can adapt to you a hundred times as fast as you can think up new ways to combat them, The Borg were in essence an unstoppable force.

    For Voyager hardcore fans, they don't want to admit the show got some things wrong, so they instead point the finger at TNG saying that the borg in TNG were "silly" and "overpowered" and "unrealistic" I myself am a fan of the show but I am resoloute, voyager watered down the borg, badly.

    In the end, they were no more of a threat than " the pitiful adversaries you've encountered so far - the Romulans, the Klingons" They lost their edge, and it was illogical writing that did it.