Crusade Question

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by kirk55555, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I could pretend, but unfortunately I know the truth. Besides, isn't it technically Londo's keeper allowing him to tell the story? At the very least, its giving its consent by allowing him to tell it and giving him the time to tell it. also, maybe that means the movie is all a lie. Maybe the keeper is making Londo tell this false story, so the whole events of the movie are invalid and didn't happen, or happened differently. Puppet Londo just raises a lot of questions about wether or not In The Beginning is actually talking about canon events or a warped version given my a puppet Londo. I know its probably not a lie and is canon, but the fact that it could be kind of hurts the movie. I'd almost rather watch the oneB5 movie where there is a spaceship with weapons controlled by stupid anti-gravity martial arts.
     
  2. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    See my edit to the above post. This is clarified somewhat in the novels you don't want to read, but basically: Keepers don't bother you except when your actions might affect their masters' security or interests. Telling a story to some kids is not such a situation, and there's no in-movie indication of any prevarication on Londo's part. In fact, he explicitly confirms he is telling a true story early on.

    Incidentally, it's not in the movie but the novelization has Londo begin recording his voiceover from the start of The Gathering immediately after the credits roll on ITB.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  3. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Fair enough. That would probably be so if the "cure" were derived from shadowtech. It doesn't seem likely that we'll ever learn exactly what was planned now that the Crusade script books have apparently stalled -- not that I was going to spend £100 or more -- I would have come here.
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'll just say that the phrase "puppet Londo" is an inaccurate reflection of the actual situation and leave it at that. Anyone who believes that to be the case is probably looking at the generalities of the situation and neglecting the specifics.

    I understand how one could draw that conclusion based solely on the events potrayed in the series, but as multiple posters have pointed out, it becomes clear if one bothers to look outside the events of the series that that isn't the situation.
     
  5. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, a keeper isn't all that intelligent on it's own. It's essentially a bio-mechanoid shock collar/two way radio. It can inflict intense pain, read the surface thoughts of it's host and since it is permanently bonded to the Drakh that bore it, it can facilitate that Drakh in telepathically communicating with said host.

    Mostly it depends on it's ability to induce pain to impose operant conditioning. They don't need total control of a host, they just need a host to do as they're told, when they are told. Even the Shadows didn't go in for that kind of mind control. It's easier to do a mindwipe and build a new personality; like they did with Anna and like Psi Corps did with Talia.
     
  6. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    Kirk...A -You're *way* overthinking this. And B-You don't know what you're talking about at all yet you're doing so at great length. None of what' you're saying pertains to the movie at all. Watch it or don't. Have an informed opinion or don't.

    Jan
     
  7. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    <Gives Jan a desk>
     
  8. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I get that keepers are mostly just a tool (although the phrase “drakh that bore it” is pretty creepy and I really hope that doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means). I just hated how they used it with Londo in the show. It could obviously fully control him, because it controlled his body to kill G’Kar. But, even if it couldn’t/didn’t control him all the time, which I know it didn’t, it still made Londo no longer be the real Londo, which I hated. It was just a horrible ending to my favorite character, and just a bad idea.

    Also, a Babylon 5 wiki says that the keeper that was in the urn Londo gave Sheridan ended up possessing Sheridan’s son (I'm assuming that happened in a book). But, since it wasn’t on TV, I can ignore that and pretend the only keepers in that era were on Londo, “Captain” Jack, and Vilo Virini. To me, the keeper in the urn died because Sheridan ends up throwing out the urn because it was too tacky, or something like that. Whatever it takes to only have to accept the on screen keepers in the B5 universe. I don't think the concept was horrible when it was on other people, but I hated it with Londo and giving Sheridan's kid a keeper just seems really, really stupid.
     
  9. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyihQtBes1I[/yt]

    :shrug:

    Really, I don't see what's wrong with "creepy" -- that's part of the enjoyment. Maybe I'm just warped.
     
  10. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh hell, so much for smiling and nodding...OK, here we go.

    If you want a more accurate gauge as to what extent a keeper can exert muscle control, remember what it did with Captain Jack on Mars. It wouldn't let him directly warn Marcus and Franklin, but he was still able to drop numerous hints. Then when he's face to face with Tessa, even though he tries to shoot her, you can tell he's clearly fighting it tooth an nail. His arm is stiff, his hand is shaking and he's taking his sweet time pulling the trigger.

    Londo was able to repeatedly knock the thing out over the years by getting hammered. It's a weakness the Drakh are even aware of since Londo mentions during his visit to Minbar that he's been denied alcohol. Indeed, why do you think he seems so desperate for a drink? He wanted to knock the thing out so he could warn them without it killing him. And before you ask, Londo knows that if he dies, they'll just find someone else to prop up on the throne and they might not be able to save Centauri Prime in the long run.

    As for Drakh baring keepers, it kind of is what you think. They're created in these little cocoon like husks until they reach a certain stage, then they can be attached to a Drakh when it forms it's symbiotic bond. Indeed you see quite clearly in the scene where Londo gets his keeper where it came from. Again though, these things aren't very bright. Maybe dog level intelligence. Which is something of an apt comparison as what a keeper *really* is a collar an lead and the Drakh is the one holding the lead. Yes there's a degree of control, but it's nowhere near as total as you seem to think.

    Mostly it controls because the Drakh is clever and cunning and knows how to manipulate their subject into submitting. With Londo it was a threat against Centauri Prime. With Captain Jack I imaging it was a threat against his daughter. The Regent....hard to say, but I think in that case it was brute force intimidation and terror that really broke him.

    And finally; OK, sure, you can ignore the keeper in the urn all you like. I'm sure the reason David was on Centauri Prime with his parent hot on his trail had nothing at all to do with it. :rolleyes:
     
  11. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What is that comment about David Sheridan supposed to mean? He never appeared on screen, he was only mentioned. Was it a book thing? Because, again, I don't count the books.

    Unless you mean that it was mentioned in World Without End, when Sheridan met future Delenn on Centauri Prime while time traveling. Maybe they mentioned that David was on Centauri Prime. I liked that two parter, and I know their son was mentioned (for the first time, I think), but I can’t remember exactly why he came up or what Delenn said. That was the two parter that revealed (two seasons early) that Londo was destined to be a puppet, so while I liked War Without End, it also started the worst thing in B5. Still, even if they said David was on Centauri Prime, there was no mention of him being infested with a keeper, so maybe Londo had him kidnapped (because of his keeper, obviously) to capture Sheridan and Delenn, which is why they had to escape in the first place (and were rescued by Londo in one of his rare free moments). Either way, no dialog about a keeper and no David on screen means I can still ignore that keeper plot.
     
  12. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    The episode mentions that something is going on with David, and that he is safe.

    The Centauri trilogy follows up on this loose end, although it's treated almost as an afterthought; it isn't the focus of the storyline or anything.
     
  13. Snatcher42

    Snatcher42 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    They're less rare than you might think.

    I normally wouldn't do this, but since you probably won't read the books anyway, here's the wikipedia summary of Legions of Fire (WARNING HUGE SPOILERS):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5:_Legions_of_Fire_–_Out_of_the_Darkness

    Suffice to say...

    Londo has his moments of defiance and herosim - what you saw in War Without End and otherwise. So much so that after their deaths, giant statues of Londo and G'kar are erected to symbolically stand guard over the Centauri capital. In the end, Londo dies as a hero, not a puppet. He just had a very long and hard road to that redemption.
    Granted, you can say it's not in the show so doesn't count, and I wouldn't completely disagree. But it is all hinted at in War Without End, and also a bit by In the Beginning.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
  14. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Given how he was able to write his memoirs without the knowledge of the Drkah or his Keeper, it seems he had much more time to himself than we thought.
     
  15. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That just raises another question.

    Why not put keepers on Sheridan, Delenn and Vir? Before Londo died it would have been very easy, and even after he died they could have done it. There was no reason to not just put keepers on everyone they hated after the shadows were defeated. Wikipedia says that the Drakh just leave Centauri Prime after Londo’s death. Why? Even when the good guys know where they are, they’re not exactly able to beat them. Just go to Minbar and put a keeper on Vir, or wait till he comes home and do it. To be clear, I wouldn’t want that. But, if you’re going to have an unstoppable puppet making monster, you should use it.

    Also, I just noticed that the Legions of Fire Trilogy was written by Peter David, one of my favorite comic/Star Trek novel writers. I’d bet that if anyone could make a story with puppet Londo not make me want to curse out the author it would be him, but I’d still put these down as probably the only Peter David books I wouldn’t read. He probably did it better than anyone else, but I hate the keepers and puppet Londo, so I still don’t think I could read it.
     
  16. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    So, Kirk...does *this* sound like a puppet? (Potential spoilers of a movie you're determined not to see because of your own overthinking)

    "The Humans I think knew they were doomed, but where another race would surrender to despair, the Humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns they used knives, and sticks, and bare hands....They were.........magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes in the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage, but in the end, they ran out of time."

    Emperor Londo Mollari. "In the Beginning"

    As for your question about Vir and keepers/Drakh...read the books. Don't expect us to tell you so that you can come up with some other uninformed opinion.

    Jan
     
  17. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Jan, perhaps the keeper was not controlling Londo when he gave that speech (about the humans) simply because it had no reason to? Londo was speaking about the past. There would be no reason for the Drakh to care about such things, so the keeper went ahead and let Londo tell the truth about it.
     
  18. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Isn't
    You'll have to forgive me, I've had considerable to drink
    from the framing story? Or is that from War Without End?
     
  19. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I thought that part was from "War Without End" when old Londo was talking to Sheridan and Delenn. I mean, Londo wouldn't tell two KIDS that he was drunk, would he?
     
  20. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Why not? It's accepted (and expected) Centauri behavior, but, he may not have stated it any way in ItB, I thought I remembered some indication, could be wrong