Crusade Question

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by kirk55555, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    [EDIT] Double post. Move along, nothing to see here!
     
  2. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm fine with books being canon (I'm a HUGE supporter of the Star Wars EU, the EU is why I love the Star Wars Uiverse). I'm sure the B5 books are good. They're also fairly expensive to get anymore, outside of getting lucky at a thrift shop (I saw a B5 book for 50 cents once, it was before I got into B5 so I didn't buy it, I still regret the missed opportunity :weep: ). The technomage stuff does sound interesting, if a bit unexpected.
     
  3. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

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    The Technomage and Centauri novels are absolutely amazing. The Centauri trilogy is the REAL ending of the series. And the Mage novels portray the Shadow War in the big budget way they should have been.

    Mages get their powers from Shadow Tech being implanted directly into their bodies. These crystalyses (sp?) were directly supplied to them by the Shadows and they have no idea how to replicate the technology. So when the Mages ran away from the Shadows in 2259, they lost the ability to gain new crystalses and make new Mages. Only the currently existing Mages can have powers, and when they die, the Mages will be extinct.

    I'm guessing that at some point in Crusade, Galen would have discovered the means to replicate the crystalses, probably from the Earthforce Conspiracy's experiments, and thus make Dureena the first of the New Mages.
     
  4. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I looked up the Centauri trilogy. On the one hand, its written by one of my favorite writers (Peter David) and involves my favorite B5 character, Londo. On the other hand, its set after the series and continues

    Londo’s story arc, which I liked for most of the show but despised the end of it with him being a puppet. Making my favorite character a puppet was my most hated part of B5 (closely followed by the EarthGov is a dictator government and nobody but the B5 crew cares plot). Londo becoming a puppet and then him and G’Kar eventually killing themselves is something I think B5 did horribly, so I think I couldn’t bring myself to read books like that. Now, if the books had been about retconing that and having Londo escape being a puppet soon after becoming one, I’d support that. But, I know that’s not the case, so to me the Centauri Trilogy is basically three books all about my most hated part of B5.

    I really enjoy B5 as a series, and I’d read the Technomage stuff if I could, but the Centauri Trilogy sound like my personal B5 hell in book form.
     
  5. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, you're wrong to assume Londo was -just- a puppet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  6. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I know all about the drinking to screw with the thing controlling him. Having an hour a two of freedom rasometimesdoesn't mean he wasn't a puppet. It was a horrible end to a great character, and the worst thing to happen in Babylon 5.
     
  7. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I find it heartily reassuring that kirk555555's 2 least fave storylines are the reason I'm such a fan, and that my favourite episode is his least favourite.
     
  8. Snaploud

    Snaploud Admiral Admiral

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    I can understand Kirk55555's feelings. It's hard to watch one of your favorite characters being forced to say and do things against his will. I have similar feelings about storylines in which a long-time character is framed for murder. Some storylines are just difficult to enjoy (even when the writing/acting/directing is done well).

    Personally, I found Londo's closing storyline (including the Centauri trilogy) a fitting way for a rather dark character to find some level of redemption. It's not for everybody, though.
     
  9. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    IIRC from the trilogy, each set of implants that the technomages obtained from the Shadows to implant in a new technomage required the death of a sentient being. I think that was the big secret that Galen uncovered. I expect that Galen must either have to steal the tech or harvest it from someone.
     
  10. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Also, about the Apocalypse Box:

    It was, IIRC, a Vorlon, or at least a fragment thereof.
     
  11. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :lol:

    Yeah, I really can't overstate how much I hated the plot about Londo the puppet, or the one about how billions of humans will instantly and unquestioningly follow a dictator for no real reason. They're really the two biggest flaws in the show. Strill, its such a great show that they don't get anywhere close to ruining B5 for me, its just kind of annoying.

    As for The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, I just don't count it as being in continuity. To me its just showing a possible chain of events in a possible future (I know that wasn't the intent, its just how I think of it so I don't go crazy). Thats an easy one to ignore, since future stories aren't put in stone anyway. I just wish I could find some way to justify The Illusion of Truth not being in continuity. Actually, I just wish I could forget both episodes even exist :klingon:.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Given that one of JMS's main themes of the show was a somewhat anti-Trek "Humanity doesn't just evolve and never do bad things ever again", to remove those elements would make the show something other than what JMS intended.

    That said, reasons were presented for why some people went along with Clark, and in many other cases I think it boiled down to simple fear. Easier to say nothing than to cause a confrontation that will likely get you imprisoned at best.
     
  13. Bisz

    Bisz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree that the Clark / EarthDome / EarthForce bit was a stretch and not my favourite bit of the show.

    I also agree that it is very difficult to see what happens to Londo, who is by far one of the best characters on the show (together with G'Kar), but man does it make for great TV and the Centauri trilogy of books is fantastic! If you like Londo as a character then you are missing out by not reading the Centauri books.
     
  14. Jan

    Jan Commodore Commodore

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    ...is insane. --JMS
    There's no indication of that in any canon source material as far as I know. In fact, given that in some instances, the voice of the box was Gideon's, that seems unlikely.

    Jan
     
  15. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Did JMS ever explain why he didn't consider that half of the book to be canon? It's been ages since I read it, so perhaps it was filled with contradictions to the series, but I don't remember any.
     
  16. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The only contradiction I'm aware of is a mix-up as to where Station Prime is supposed to be (the book has it over Centauri Prime instead of Earth.)

    As for JMS, IIRC it's not that he's ever specifically said that the other half *isn't* canon, it that all he's said on the subject (in response to a question) is that the story of the Icarus as presented in that book is canon.

    So like I said, it's a bit of a grey area and it's no great loss or gain either way.

    Yeah, if it was a Vorlon it'd sound like Gideon's father, not Gideon himself. ;)

    I think with Crusade, JMS wanted to show that there's a lot of weird ancient crap floating around the galaxy that has little if anything to do directly with the First Ones. For a minute there with LotR it looked like he'd intended to continue that idea with 'The Hand', but of course we never got to see how that would have played out.
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One of the things that disappointed me about LotR (and I keep thinking that means something else) is that it was hard for me not to think, "Oh good, another uber-powerful race, just what this universe needs."
     
  18. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd bet a good chunk of cash that "The Hand" wouldn't turn out to be the main villains. JMS never starts a show with the main arc front and centre. That doesn't usually kick in until at least mid-way through season one and all we got from LotR (yeah, I know!) was the pilot. You couldn't possibly have predicted what B5 would have been about from watching 'The Gathering' and the little details we have of where Crusade was heading make it clear that the Drakh Plague was only a catalyst to the main plot.

    Always remember; "...no one here is exactly what they appear." ;)
     
  19. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

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    JMS did say that The Hand were lying about who they really were.
     
  20. dansigal

    dansigal Captain Captain

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    Did you not enjoy it because you like Londo so much or do you think it wasn't well done? Because I don't think anyone is supposed to be happy about how the plot goes, but I also don't think you can deny how well done it was. It's called tragedy. And tragedy only works when you care about the characters its happening to. And the more the show is successful at making you care, the better the use of tragedy works. Joss Whedon has said that the secret to making good television is creating awesome characters that everyone loves and then doing terrible terrible things to them.

    I certainly feel for ya on how expensive the books are to get your hands on, but if you can, if you're that big of a Londo fan, I would still recommend learning about how his story plays out.