Crazily shaped assignment patches

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Captain Jed R., Oct 26, 2013.

  1. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    So the TNG Enterprise really does have a giant hamster in a wheel down in engineering, and a big yellow rubber duckie, among other in-jokes on the signage.
     
  2. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I'm happy they didn't mess with Mendez' secretary. Would you also recommend they should have changed the deltas / arrowheads on the uniforms of Kirk's "friends" in "Court Martial"?

    Mendez' secretary could have just been in charge of starship-only affairs, hence the delta / arrowhead.

    Where the Bob Justman memo (thanks GSchnitzer) continues to confuse me is this: If we assume that he wanted to state that all "starship captains" in a perfect world wear the delta, he still owes us the answer why commodores in charge of starships (at least and most definitely Matt Decker) were entitled to wear a different insignia.

    Does this mean that once a captain is promoted to the rank of commodore he can pick his personal choice of insignia for himself (and perhaps for his crew?).

    If the insignia selection process qualifies as a reward, I see no problem why Starfleet shouldn't honor the accomplishments of a certain starship by adopting its insignia as the general one for Starfleet (i.e. "The Cage / Menagerie" Orion scene - April's Enterprise / "Court-Martial" & "The Menagerie" - Pike's Enterprise / "Court-Martial" etc. - Wesley's Lexington ;)).

    Bob
     
  3. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Nah. I should also add that I'd rather keep the Constellation and Exeter emblems as-is. I always thought they were cool. And, I'd certainly not change Mendez's secretary, if the price for that were "fixing" those.
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ummm, you're the one who brought up HD resolution.

    Except the director didn't do that, there were two actor in the foreground of the sickbay shot laying face up, with their insignia exposed.

    Solely on a tombstone created by Gary Mitchell. Kirk himself consistantly gave his initial as T, and so did his official records at his court martial (and in Mirror mirror).

    Whether these thing exist within the Enterprise Dee is debatable, however there is no debate that they exist on the ships MSD. That must is canon.

    By some perhaps, but that "held idea" is not backed up by on screen evidence.

    My take (personal opinion only) is that during the TOS era the vast majority of the fleet wears the arrowhead insignia. However ranks above Captain can have their own insignia, which is also worn by members of their own staff (yeomen, doctors, etc,). There was also different insignia for branches like JAG, Starfleet equivalent of USNS, and others.


    :)
     
  5. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    What's on screen is the result of the folks producing the show making a decision. Either to fudge it by crafting shots that obscured the delta or creating new patches. Those are ideas that the on screen evidence supports.
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    If the rubber ducky were canon, it would have shown up on Sternbach's Enterprise-D floorplans.
     
  7. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Even if it happens to be discernible at a lesser resolution than HD, that doesn't really change the point, which is that we're coming back years later looking at high quality screen grabs (I should have said "high quality" instead of "HD"), which were beyond the means of the general viewer to get during the original run.

    Sorry. What I meant to say was...

    I won't say in this case that I misspoke, because I really think it should have been clear that I was speaking of a general trend. If there's any doubt that I was speaking of the general trend, just rewind to an earlier post of mine where I said this:


    That passage should also take care of what I meant by bringing up "HD" too, for that matter.

    Poses hiding the emblems, or where they cannot be made out (from TrekCore's DVD screen grabs):

    1. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x09/thetholianweb026.jpg
    2. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x09/thetholianweb039.jpg
    3. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x09/thetholianweb040.jpg
    4. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x09/thetholianweb046.jpg
    5. http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x09/thetholianweb048.jpg
    Oh, hey, wait, what about #5? That's the picture you posted, isn't it? No, it's not. In TrekCore's image from the DVD screengrabs, one can't make out the emblem. What you posted isn't the same image as theirs. Interesting...

    Oh yes, precisely, that is the point. The point is that, given that Where No Man Has Gone Before lists the initial as R., why should we consider it an error, assuming what's on screen is never wrong. Why can't we therefore conclude that WNMHGB thus takes place in a different universe? But, I said that, too, to begin with.

    And before you say, ah but maybe Gary was mistaken, two things. If he didn't know the initial, why make one up? Plus, he was a demigod by then, so there's no excuse for making a mistake like that.

    The point is that, by reductio ad absurdum, we must conclude that some things seen on screen are not to be taken literally. Otherwise, we are led to absurdities, such as that WNMHGB takes place in a different universe. That is the point: we know that the R. was retconned away once the series proper was underway.

    :)
     
  8. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Or it wasn't about the uniforms at all but about obscuring the fact that all the Defiant crew that we see is being represented by a handful of extras. ;)
    Especially considering how visible the arrow is here
    http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x09hd/thetholianwebhd0228.jpg
     
  9. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Now, admittedly, the arrowhead emblem is visible there, although that is an HD screengrab. :techman:
     
  10. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No SD capture of that part of the shot at Trekcore (the selection of captures is limited compared to the HD counterparts)* ;)

    Point is tho is that they weren't trying to hide the patch; it is right up there as a foreground element, just like the other arrows in the other shot posted earlier.

    *{no doubt an artifact of the evolution of web tech.}
     
  11. plynch

    plynch Commodore Commodore

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    The "secretary" was on temporary transfer from Enterprise. She had beamed over before Kirk and Spock.
     
  12. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    I think GSchnitzer is probably right: they were trying to split the difference. The shots with obviously hidden patches could satisfy the fans who'd been paying attention to canon and who expected a unique patch, whereas the one or two shots with clearly visible ones could satisfy "original intent" (whatever that was).

    The existence of one or two shots showing the arrowhead doesn't make the ship's patch immune to future retconning, and nor does that imply that ENT: IAMD "got it wrong". As retcons go, giving the Defiant its own specialized patch barely registers, which is really my main point here, as a takeaway. Retcons happened in Trek many times over the years, a lot of them far more significant.
     
  13. GSchnitzer

    GSchnitzer Co-Executive Producer Moderator

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  14. Robert Comsol

    Robert Comsol Commodore Commodore

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    I'd like to add this one with the redshirt character tied onto a bed in sickbay.

    I still remember how I asked my friend in the good old days of VHS to freeze frame this (and the other shot) for better examination. But even in SD and on a 4:3 tube TV the basic delta / arrowhead was recognizable.

    Interestingly, they could have used the restraining belt to cover the insignia. ;)
    Can't help but not to imagine Bob Justman making a short stop at the set during shooting and doing some "re-adjustman" of the belt. :lol:

    However, given the viewing angle, for in-universe purposes they could have altered the delta / arrowhead to look somewhat different. Unfortunately the producers of the IAMD decided to go for an insignia that's not compatible. :(

    Bob
     
  15. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sure you can, the shape of the insignia of the woman on the floor is especially visible with the way the light is catching it..

    It is not an error, it's the product of a deliberate choice by Mitchell, for whatever reason he choose to place an R on the tombstone.

    Based upon what please? Again, neither Kirk, nor his official records, said that his middle initial was anything but a T.

    But why do you think it to be a "mistake?" There could be any of a number of reasons that Mitchell choose not to employ Kirk's actual middle initial. One that I'm fond of is it's a play on an old joke between them, R is for "Romeo."

    Mitchell retained enough of his personality and personal humor to place this old joke on James "Romeo" Kirk's grave.

    I'm not arguing that nothing was ever changed, but to be honest I'm not the biggest fan of constantly using "ret-con" over employing simply explanations.


    :)
     
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    You seem not to have realized that the question you're responding to there was meant to be only rhetorical. Of course WNMHGB is not "really" in a different universe.
    Well, that's as much of retcon as any other retcon, but I'll award it massive points, for originality, cleverness, and squaring the circle of keeping what's on screen intact. Sure, James "Romeo" Kirk it is! :lol:

    As for the rest, I've stated my position now several times, and I'm not going 'round and 'round again on that.
     
  17. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Based upon your own standards of nitpicking. You can't say episode X is an AU because of detail Y, then excuse similar incorrect details in episode Z.

    WMNHGB was the third episode aired. Spock wears yellow, Sulu wears blue, the ship and bridge look different, there's no Dr. McCoy, Kirk has a BFF who he never ever mentions before or since, the uniforms and technology are different and Kirk's middle initial is R.... and it's all magically back to normal by the next episode, "The Naked Time"

    That's a lot more evidence of an AU than a retconned mission patch!
     
  18. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And if they repeatedly switched back and forth that would be a sign of prime and alternate universes ... but they didn't.

    It obvious that Starfleet occasionally changes the uniforms, and this could include the insignia. But why would the Defiant crew's uniforms change after they all were dead, and after the ship had move into another universe?


    :)
     
  19. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The 'Kirk's middle initial' thing in Where No Man... has never bothered me. Oftentimes, a person will say of someone "Procrastination is his middle name" or something like that. I assumed it went back to the Academy, where Mitchell may have said something similar of the 'stack of books with legs' Kirk. Also, I used to jokingly "loan" my middle initial to a friend who had no middle name.
     
  20. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    How about when the nacelles would switch from vents to globes with in an episode, because they reused older sfx shots.:p