Continuity Nazis: Your own personal canon.

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Ben Sisko3, Sep 27, 2008.

  1. Thrall

    Thrall Commodore Commodore

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    Wolverine is no anti-hero. The only time he's ever worked for the bad guys was when he was under their control. He's kills bad guys but then so does James Bond, Indiana Jones, Rambo, Ahnold and John Mclaine.

    Emma is evil. She takes pleasure in causing pain, anguish, and manipulating people. Fitting for a serial rapist. She was just crafty enough and picked the winning side. There is no moral ambiguity there. She doesn't believe in what Xavier believes in. She thinks mutants are superior to humans, but unlike Magneto she's willing to wait on inheriting the Earth. It's why she's always spewing out that elitist crap. She's a disgusting waste of a person and Marvel needs to quit pretending she's a good guy.
     
  2. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    She's certainly vindictive, but she isn't evil; she stopped being a villain after her students were killed (the first time), and opened a new school with Xavier's support, including admitting human students toward the end. Like I said, she often favours more expedient methods then others on the team, but she isn't a villain.
     
  3. Gojirob

    Gojirob Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    See, I think the whole Ezekiel/Totem thing could have been used to achieve OMD/BND w/o Mephisto. Ezekiel appears and tells Peter his life is, natch, one big web. He hates how the web has weaved, so E tells him to pull it apart and spin a new one. Two problems : One, once he does this, the mystic stuff will leave his life forever (heh) and Two, not being all trans-cosmic, Peter has no idea how the new web will look or how it will be structured. His efforts to save May and undo the unmasking have most of the consequences of Brand New Day, but without the hero preening before the devil himself, and leaving an in-story chance that he and MJ will eventually get back together. An unmanned Predator drone then finds an unshaven Joe Quesada, and mistakes him for an image in its data banks.

    Wackiness ensues.

    "Duhhhhh--Pete is that friend who drives everyone crazy, cause he's so undependable. Ah-huck, ah-huh."

    BTW, do you think the other demons mocked on Mephisto when he got back from OMD?

    Demon : Master, you have triumphed! Spider-Man's heroic soul is yours.

    M : Uhm, No. Didn't quite get his soul. Really, its a funny story...

    D : Then, you have the soul of his beloved Mary Jane? Another love he couldn't save, what torture!

    M : Well, No. But I did make several whispered side-deals with her, and...

    D : Then the innocent Aunt May is ours?

    M : Nottt realllly. Her being alive was one of the big terms.

    D : Ahhh, but you replaced May Parker with one of us, right?

    M :Looking back, that might have been an idea, but again, No.

    D : Jameson? Robbie? Flash Thompson? Debra FREAKING Whitman?

    M : No on those too.

    D : What did you get out of this?

    M : My ancient enemy above us...

    D : You mean God.

    M : My sworn foe in the struggles for men's tender souls...

    D : ....in other words, God.

    M : The one whose light I give meaning by my shadow...

    D : You can say God, you know. We're already in Hell.

    M : He who cast me out...

    D : You're the devil, so that would be.....GOD!!! What are you afraid of, blasphemy? Too late.

    M : I have grievously wounded him by undoing the union between the Young Parkers--and restoring Harry, and introducing a bunch of weirdos no one's ever heard of, and making Peter an idiot slacker...

    D : Are they eternally tormented by the memory of what they lost?

    M : Some smallest part of them remembers.

    D : That's...not quite eternal torment.

    M : Wait til all the oblique comments about the past timeline are made! It will be HELL!!

    (Demon stalks off, points to a figure on a larger throne behind Mephisto)

    D : Quesada - YOU'RE JUST EVIL!!!!
     
  4. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course Wolverine is an anti-hero. So is Rambo. An anti-hero is not the same as a "bad guy."
     
  5. Thrall

    Thrall Commodore Commodore

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    No she's evil. Kitty Pride totally called it right. She enjoys mind-raping people and using people and killing people and is full of scorn and contempt for anyone who isn't "one of the chosen". None of that has ever changed. Just because someone isn't a villain anymore doesn't make them any less evil. She's a total sociopath in every way. She just happens to love kids.:rolleyes:

    How is killing commies for America bad? How is killing super-villains who have it coming bad?
     
  6. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    wow. Let's try that again.

     
  7. Thrall

    Thrall Commodore Commodore

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    No, I understood you the first time. So you think all hero's must act like Superman and never kill and rescue kittens out of tree's? What a boring vision.
     
  8. Thespeckledkiwi

    Thespeckledkiwi Vice Admiral

    You have some excellent points there Gojirob...I think Ezekial would be better IF he had more of a role in Parker's life. Kind of like Madam Web was in the Cartoon.
     
  9. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The concepts of the hero and the antihero are literary constructs. They are not opposites. You don't seem to be grasping the concept. I refer you to Leslie Erickson's Ph.D. dissertation, entitled The search for self: Everyday heroes and an integral re-visioning of the heroic journey in postmodern literature and popular culture, University of Nebraska - Lincoln, 2004. It sheds some light on the current popularity of Wolverine and the degradation in the depiction of Superman's character over the past 20 years.
     
  10. Hermiod

    Hermiod Admiral Admiral

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    For the most part I agree with you, but, I believe she does love Scott and she was she did make it very clear to Bishop that under no circumstances would the X-Men join the Civil War on the pro-Registration side as she believed that registration goes against all the X-Men stand for.
     
  11. Thespeckledkiwi

    Thespeckledkiwi Vice Admiral

    There is a complexity surrounding Emma that I think Whedon did a fairly decent job exploiting.
     
  12. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    The degradation of pretty much all characters....
     
  13. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    You cite Whedon's run, when Whedon himself wrote her as a hero.
     
  14. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    Haven't read the book, but I have to back up beaker here. Wolverine was the very definition of a comic book anti-hero in the '70s and early '80s, and this was widely recognized at the time. That he became so popular and emulated that he started looking more like the norm is another story....
     
  15. darkwing_duck1

    darkwing_duck1 Vice Admiral

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    I think that the rise of the anti-hero in comics is better illustrated by the "reformatting" of the Punisher from psychotic freak to extreme seeker of justice.
     
  16. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    This isn't just a comics phenomenon; all entertainment media have seen increased prominence of anti-heroes (in great part due to the relaxation of censorship and S&P that allows writers more latitude in what they can depict).
     
  17. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    You have no idea how much that pisses me off. I will never buy any comic starring Punisher.

    I agree that it permeates all levels of the arts; I don't necessarily think that it has anything to do with censorship, though. It's a social trend that began in the Reagan Era when it became cool to be violent and insensitive, and Human feelings became synonymous with weakness; it's been on a downhill track since then.

    A few months ago, I read a book called Superfolks, which came out in the 70s and is considered the precursor to postmodern superhero deconstructionism (e.g. Watchmen). The foreward is written by Grant Morrison, who talks about this and says, in part:

    And that about sums it up this Dark Age: It's all self-parody, but nobody gets the joke.
     
  18. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    Oh, and lest I give the wrong impression, that book is highly recommended. It's very 70s. If anybody remembers the Weird Heroes books, it will give you pretty much that same feeling. :)
     
  19. theenglish

    theenglish Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think that this wikipedia article is pretty straightforward in its description of the anit-hero and the concepts origins as well as its place in comics.

    With regard to the thread topic, I believe that only the first fifteen minutes of The Cage are canonical and all Star Trek that follows/(predates?) deserves to be wiped from existence and destroyed my childhood memories of the show.
     
  20. Hermiod

    Hermiod Admiral Admiral

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    ^So, chronologically, only Enterprise and the first 15 minutes of The Cage count ?