Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Squiggy, May 16, 2009.
you DS9 to TOS
I believe Abramsverse also changes ENT, the events taking place in ENT require events in the 29th century/temporal cold war or whatever to stay the same. If Future Guy no longer exists or the Temporal Cold war no longer happens then the events in Enterprise must also have been altered.
Thanks for visualizing what I had But like I said, all them "other" events were ultimately corrected or were so tiny to begin with, they had no huge impact on the timeline (other than the FC Borg Debris).
Everything else was a Freak Wave. First Contact was like a Storm Surge. Nero was an asteroid created Tsunami. Thats the best analogy I can put it in in relation to its effect on time.
No, as we have seen, once a time traveler changes the past, it stays changed.
Picard and the Borg still interfered with Cochrane's first warp flight before "Enterprise." FutureGuy and Daniels and the Sphere Builders still interfered with history during "Enterprise." And Nero and Spock interfered with history after "Enterprise."
In "Yesterday's Enterprise," when Lt. Yar went back in time on the Enterpirse-C, she and her daughter, Sela, still continued to exist in this new timeline, even if we never see their original timeline with the Klingon war again. Likewise, even if Nero erases the future existence of Daniels and FutureGuy, their visits to the past have already happened, and always will have happened. Like Yar and Sela, they may come from futures that will never happen in this timeline, but they were real when they came back to this timeline, and their actions are still a part of history.
As to the above chart, it is missing the 17 temporal incursions involving the U.S.S. Voyager, most notably the creation of Timeline 14-G by Captain Chakotay in "Timeless," and the creation of Timeline 29-A by Admiral Janeway in "Endgame."
(This Timeline 29-A is the one depicted in "Star Trek: Nemesis," as evidenced by Admiral Janeway's existence at Starfleet Command in that timeline, and Timeline 29-A is also known as the Prime Timeline, from which Nero and Spock came in "Star Trek XI," which ended up in Timeline 29-B, where Vulcan was destroyed.)
The last episode of "Enterprise" took place in Timeline 11-R, which was identical to Timeline 29-B up to Stardate 2233.04, when Nero arrived in the past.
And let's not forget all the alternate timelines created by the Vorgons in "Captain's Holiday."
We're going to need a bigger chart ...
No, whether you go back and step on a single butterfly, or blow up an entire planet, it's still a new timeline. The magnitude of the changes has nothing to do with the fact that the timeline is changed merely by the act of time travel.
While many timelines are nearly identical (where the only difference in the entire Universe is that Worf's birthday cake is yellow instead of chocolate, as seen in "Parallels"), they are still different timelines.
Using your water analogy, whether it's a single drop of rain or a tidal wave, an act of time travel is creating an alternate timeline. The size of the splash merely determines how different (or similar) it will be to the time traveler's home timeline.
Now THAT was a horrible movie.
Except everything prior to Nero created timelines which were very very very similar to the original, minus the timeline where the borg debris was discovered (which is the same timeline that First Contact created).
Between FC and Nero, there was no known time travel incursions between 2163(when I think Regeneration Took place) and 2233 (the temporal cold war does not count, because it eventually didnt even happen).
Now, the first minute or so of the new movie takes place in the First Contact timeline which is the timeline Enterprise took place in, and the past of the future characters of Picard and Co had observed (Schrodinger's Cat and all that, if it is seen, it sticks) thus this is the closest timeline to the universe it had originated from - The Moment Nero comes out of the singularity, then we are in the new timeline which is vastly different. Hence, First Contact is a storm surge (a larger than usual shift in the timeline, but still fairly normal) and Nero is a Tsunami (A Giant, Universe changing shift).
I prefer the alternate quantum reality theory (seen here), for that permits the future exploration of the 24th and 25th centuries. Not only has this theory been incorporated to permit ST:Online, but statements from the ST11 screenwriters indicate that this was their intent -- they point to "Parallels" for inspiration for the time travel.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but I wouldn't want you guys parading your Prime Timeline disrupting theory without a counterargument logged.
I'm just saying that if Nero went back through the black hole, and the only thing he did in the past was to beam down to Vulcan, step on a single Vulcanian butterfly, and then immediately return to the black hole and vanish forever, then it would still be a new timeline without that butterfly, just as much as the new timeline without Vulcan.
The magnitude of the change has nothing to do with the actual mechanics of time travel or divergent timelines. The magnitude of the change simply affects our emotional reaction to it.
I think most people's objection to this movie is emotional, based on the magnitude of the change, not that time travel caused ANY change to the past.
Noone is disputing this is a new timeline, the whole point of this thread is to clear up what timeline this movie takes place in. The fact is, Nero didnt just step on a butterfly and go on his merry way, he destroyed a Starship, A Planet and attempted to destroy Earth along with a fleet of starships full of personell who would have had an effect on the timeline regardless is what caused the drastic changes in this film from the visual look to the rank and position of characters. It was an attempt to reconcile all the "nagging" inconsistencies many had with the film, and it pretty much does work out.
With the exception of the two Ent timelines in that image (They should be one and the same), I thought that WAS what the image here stated. The First Contact timeline should probably be offset in relation to the Prime one, but because the changes werent all that big to begin with (up until Nero's incursion) it "fit" in with the original timeline very well.
I was going to mention that.
But yeah, really cool stuff. Either you're awesome as hell, or I'm amused entirely too easily.
It's probably somewhere in the middle.
Squiggy's new sig-line
A little from column A, a little from column B. Thank you for recognizing my greatness though.
Nice work, Squggs. (I would've made each "jump" a different color, though, for clarity. Can't believe I forgot "CotEoF" in my timeline! :headsmack: (I also forgot Little Green Men.)
Yeah, there should be a small jump between DS9 and TOS (Trials and Tribblations) but near as I can tell that's all of the time jumps.
I'm guessing that the blue line between the end of the 21st century and TOS is there to suggest that TOS wasn't effected by Enterprise?
very interesting and good work
My latest revision. I *think* I got all incidences of time-travel in Trek and I'll admit that the order of *when* these divergent time lines occur is suspect. But the "going theory" would be that the divergant timelines occured in the order we viewed them. (I.E. Archer's timeline was based off the time-travel that occured in First Contact. Since First Contact (for us) "happened first.)) But I admit that even-then it's not perfect as I was fuzzy on when certain epiosdes took place before when. And it now occurs to be that the timeline with an elder Jake Sisko would be yet another divergence but, granted, a divergence in the future, not the past. (The Visitor)
So, I'm going under the theory that every incidence of time-travel is just a shift into a parallel universe and that it's impossible to return to your "home" time you simply return to the futue of that parallel universe you entered/created.
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