"Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Admiral_Sisko, Oct 6, 2012.

  1. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Why not? Changelings risking their babies is an established DS9 fact - that's what the Hundred were all about. If Odo failed to go through the motions of saving the baby, they'd either send another, or judge Odo unworthy of redemption.

    I just had a thought about the timing. Odo got as bad as the Female Changeling only about half a season after her; if the FC got the disease in "Broken Link", then "The Begotten" would be the right time for Odo to re-catch it...

    Then again, the disease apparently manifests faster and worse if the Changeling in question shapeshifts a lot. For all we know, the Female Founder had less shapeshifting activity than Odo did, what with being a leader rather than a soldier and all. Thus, the FC would go from infection to heavy symptoms in 2.5 seasons, while Odo would take just 1.5-2 seasons to get to the same state.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well Odo's on record at keeping the shapeshifting to a minimum becomes it reminds people he's different. So aside from switching from humanoid form to goo once a day, unless there's a need he typically doesn't do it.

    The Founders think that part of being a shapeshifter is turning into things for the heck of it so they can learn what it means to be a thing. Be it clouds, rocks, plants or what not. So I'd think the FF would've been more inclined towards "recreational shapeshifting" than Odo. Especially when she's in the Alpha Quadrant before the war. So chances are she'd be undercover at some point too.

    I'm inclined to think that the baby shapeshifter in the Begotten is what is claimed. One of the Hundred that Quark just happened to chance upon and therefore didn't have the Section 31 disease.
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    I'd prefer that explanation as well (why would the Link forgive Odo so easily?). There's just one thing there that smells a bit fishy...

    ...Quark sells it to Odo for eight slips, after minimal haggling. Would he do that if he weren't already being paid much more handsomely by somebody who wanted the lump of goo to be delivered to Odo?

    Check the Memory Alpha entry for what eight slips would otherwise get you. An elevator ride, or 80% of a root beer case, is the going price for a Baby Changeling? :eek:

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  4. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    It's not like there's much of a market for baby Changelings, is there? Who else would be willing to pay anything for one, much less more than 8 slips?

    The Federation might want a baby Changeling for study, but they're not going to pay Quark for it. They'd just confiscate it.

    The Romulans might want it, too, but they'd probably just steal it.

    The Klingons would just kill it.

    The Cardassians might actually pay for it, but would even Quark want to deal with them at that time?

    No, I think 8 slips was probably a good deal for both parties involved.
     
  5. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    But even if there is only one person you can sell to, if the thing you have to sell is something very very important to him, he's still going to pay a lot for it.
     
  6. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    If Quark pushed Odo too hard, though, he'd lose the sale completely. Odo wasn't going to be stymied in his acquisition of the baby changeling by mere financial considerations. If the price was outrageous, Odo might have the Bajoran government or Starfleet intervene, and Quark would lose out on the transaction completely. Remember, the last time Quark reported a found baby, Sisko confiscated the entire wreckage in which it was found! So maybe Quark took a "loss" on the baby Changeling in order to prevent the authorities from inspecting whatever else he acquired when he found the baby.
     
  7. Tom Riker

    Tom Riker Lieutenant

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    Do you think Miles told keiko about Rita? I wouldn’t tell Keiko about Rita.
     
  8. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    There's nothing to tell, since it never happened to the Miles that made it back to Keiko. What would he say, anyway - "Hi honey! In an alternate timeline where we were separated forever, I married another woman."
     
  9. Tom Riker

    Tom Riker Lieutenant

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    And passive agressive husband abusing Keiko would've been okay with that? :rommie:
     
  10. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, I've been rewatching DS9 and I'm not seeing the evidence for a bitchy, passive-aggressive Keiko that some people make her out to be.
     
  11. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    Here's what I don't get about this argument... Children of time aired during season 5. The changeling disease was not mentioned until season 7 (maybe the end of 6 at the earliest but I don't think so). So perhaps the writers just hadn't made up the whole changeling disease when Children of Time was written, ergo there is no way ' Gaia Odo' could have had it. Yes, if this was all real Gaia Odo should have been sick or even dead from the disease. But saying he got it during S4 was just a retcon by the writers anyway which created a plot hole that didn't exist when COT was written.

    I think sometimes we forget that this is just a TV show, after all :lol:
     
  12. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    So you don't think that the Founders changing Odo into a permanent solid could have rid him of the disease vector that S31 infected him with? That somehow it stayed in the human Odo despite him not being a changeling?

    Going out of the universe to explain the "discrepancy" is not even necessary in this case.
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    I don't get this. Why would gaia Odo have the disease?

    From his point of view the timeline went like this...

    • Went to earth in Homefront and Paradise Lost, infected with the disease.
    • Linked with female shapeshifter, infected rest of Great Link.
    • Punsihed and made solid. Odo cured of changling disease.
    • Baby changling absorbs into Odo, restoring his shapeshifting abilities. Odo now shapeshifter with no disease.
    • Odo stuck on Gaia, learns to shapeshift better.

    Why would he end up dying from the disease on Gaia?
     
  14. chrinFinity

    chrinFinity Captain Captain

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    I see a much simpler explanation... Section 31 engineered this disease such that Odo would be a "carrier" but not show symptoms... The disease would have been structured in such a way that Odo's morphogenic matrix was immune.

    So he infects the great link, but since different changelings have different matrices (like DNA, let's say), they became infected.

    But they made him human. No more morphogenic matrix, no more disease.

    Then Odo encounters the baby changeling he purchased from Quark (and this must definitely be one of "The Hundred").

    Baby regloopifies Odo, resulting in a ... *drumroll* new and different morphogenic matrix, still uninfected.

    Then, Children of Time. No sickness (aside from love sickness, guffaw).

    Then, Dominion Occupation arc... Odo gets the disease from Princess Evil, and is no longer immune because the disease is only engineered to provide immunity to Odo's *original* morphogenic matrix.

    And they all lived happily ever after.
     
  15. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    But why would they care if Odo gets infected or not?

    And your idea of the different changelings having different morphogenic matrices is a nice idea, but in-universe it would contradict the female founder's claim that there is one Founder, and many, depending on how you look at it. If they had unique matrices, then there would be discreet individuals, and the drop would not be able to become the ocean.

    So I think the evidence from the show indicates that as neat as your idea is, it's not correct.
     
  16. Flying Spaghetti Monster

    Flying Spaghetti Monster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I tend not to think about it. A lot of People like "Children of Time" but I'm not one of them. It never did anything for me except for detract from characterizations of the main cast that is normally pro-active. For the first three acts of this story, they are, instead, just listening to shit they can't change, must accept, and must learn to cope with. I never liked this episode.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe present-day Odo simply doesn't WANT to closely imitate a 'solid' face? He probably just likes the way he looks now. Even if future Odo gave him the ability, he doesn't have to actually want to use it.
     
  18. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Supposedly, Odo would have learned lots of new things about being a Changeling in "The Search" already. Either this sort of education just plain won't lead to immediate improvement in skills no matter how hard Odo tries, or then Odo sees no point in change. "Children of Time" would not have represented that big a turning point either way.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. chrinFinity

    chrinFinity Captain Captain

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    No conflict required - let's say the matrix is redefined every time two or more changelings "link" together. Pretty snazzily fits with the "ocean becomes the drop" concept.

    It would also mean that Odo would be succeptible to the disease at any point after linking, but Sec 31 wouldn't care about that, as if he'd already visited the Great Link and delivered the virus, Section 31 would no longer have any interest in maintaining Odo's health to cover up his carrying of the virus.

    Hmm? Hmm? :D

    But as a side note, I think you may be taking the Female Changeling's statement about the ocean and the drop a little too literally... While Changelings can intermingle unlike solids, I don't think they ever lose their sense of identity (as, for example, the Borg do) and they're clearly not a hive mind. Also, my sense is that if some number of changelings, say, 26, were to enter into a link orgy, the same 26 would come out again after. You wouldn't get 25, or 27. I also believe the population of the Great Link is comprised of a fixed number of individuals at any given time, even if they are all in liquid form together on the same planet, they could still be constituted out into the same individuals afterward.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    How could we tell? The Link never spits out two distinct individuals, unless one of them is Odo. All we ever see is a generic Changeling, regardless of whether it takes the shape of Female Changeling, Admiral Leyton, Chief O'Brien or a seagull. There is no known variation in personality or identity. Except for Odo and the other independently operating youngster Laas.

    Timo Saloniemi