Characters Spirit - Reboot compared to TOS (Possible spoilers)

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Cmdr.Druss, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Yeoman Basha

    Yeoman Basha Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Well, violating the Prime Directive is something that Kirk never outgrew. Kirk Prime was doing it all the time. So to give Kirk that coming-of-age story arc, his immaturity had to go beyond just breaking the Prime Directive.

    But yes, we're in agreement that they went overboard with the immaturity angle in the early part of STID. I mean, Kirk hardly does anything right in the first third of the film.

    Having said that, I'm very glad that the writers tried to give Kirk a strong story arc, and the whole coming-of-age angle was a good one for him. I also don't blame Pine at all, as I think he did a really great job with what he was given. It was just...the writers laid it on a bit too thick at the beginning.
     
  2. Yeoman Basha

    Yeoman Basha Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Well, my crystal ball is broken, and predictions are made to be wrong -- but I don't think there is any chance whatsoever we'll see a McCoy-Marcus romance in the next film. The sequel will have Kirk-Marcus, nuDavid will be spawned, and McCoy will be lucky to get anything more than a small supporting part. And I say this as someone who loves McCoy and Karl Urban.

    As far as the Gaila subplot in XI, the whole reason that was deleted in the first place was because it made Kirk too unlikable. That's why it was cut. So as far as I'm concerned, it never happened.

    Through XI and the early part of STID, the writers wanted to show us that Kirk was a playboy. Mission accomplished. The point was hammered home with a sledgehammer. I think they know it's time to move on already, and I am convinced we will see a more mature Kirk in the next film.
     
  3. Hugh Mann

    Hugh Mann Lieutenant

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    There isn't any of the spirit of the old characters. Abrams' characters are two-dimensional, thinly-veiled caricatures of the original crew, at best. McCoy does nothing of value, ever, and every time Karl Urban utters a one-liner it is painfully evident the scriptwriters are trying to make him a grouchy old man without ever having watched Kelly DeForest. Kirk is an idiot with no redeeming features and who should be in a mental institution because his sociopathic idiocy makes him a danger to everyone else around him. Unlike the original who even at his worst wasn't completely brainless. Spock, always the most interesting of the original crew, completely lacks the subtlety and nuance of Leonard Nimoy's, as if the writers simply decided that making him speak awkwardly was enough to give him depth (and judging from the posts on this forum, most people appear to mistake that for actual characterization). The rest of the characters are all the same.

    It's difficult to tell whether the actors are genuinely awful and incapable, or whether they are simply doing the best they can with shitty scriptwriting and directing. I lean towards the latter, personally.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I find them appropriate for the ages that are being shown. Been watching TOS since 1975. McCoy did nothing but save Kirk.

    And it's DeForest Kelley. :p
     
  5. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    It's hilarious when "experts" can't even get the basics right.:lol:
     
  6. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    You know what pisses me off? When J.J. completely glosses over the time Kirk, from TOS, shot womp-rats in his T16. Kind of a "way to forget the rich lore, you hip and edgy bespectacled son-of-a-bitch," you know?
     
  7. starburst

    starburst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To me (and this may just be the way I watched it) that was the point, Kirk is a natural leader who saved Earth and won the centre seat on Starfleets newest ship through bravado, out of the box thinking and a whole heap of luck.

    The start of STID shows that while hes grown in his command hes gotten used to taking risks and them working out, looses his ship and shows he is the same guy from the bar fight as pointed out by Pike.

    By the end of the movie he has lost his surrogate father along with watching a number of people die and almost gave into his desire for revenge, lost a number of people under his command, almost had his ship destroyed and then died saving it. For me the turning point is when he genuinely turns to his crew and says "Im sorry..." when he realises what he has done will likely get them all killed.

    Hopefully the new writers will now show him as the Captain the Enterprise deserves now he has come from darkness and earnt his chair.
     
  8. LilyThompson

    LilyThompson Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I agree with your staeement, except I wouldn't see them as "excellent". Nu-Kirk is a jerk. Other than that, you're spot-on!
     
  9. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    Kirk, a jerk? No more than the past version could be at times.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  10. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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  11. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    The problem for me was that in trying to show Kirk earning the captaincy in STID they pretty much did a reset button.

    Pike gives him a dressing down and sends him back to the Academy.

    Pike makes Kirk First Officer of the Enterprise.

    Pike dies.

    Marcus makes Kirk Captain of the Enterprise.

    That took what, 10 minutes? And what did Kirk do in that time to earn the center seat? Nothing. It was all people changing his position. You could have removed the whole demotion/promotion bit from the movie and nothing would have changed. Harrison kills Pike. Marcus sends kirk after Harrison. Works out exactly the same.
     
  12. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Look it took more than 10 minutes 'real time'.

    Kirk did a lot of stuff. He took down Harrison and stopped his attack. Discovered where Harrison had gone (I don't know why Scotty was looking at it but hey he was).
    And Kirk refused to kill Harrison without trial even though he really wanted to
    Kirk learnt humility when facing off against Marcus.
    Kirk let Spock take over the ship citing him as the better man for the job.
    Kirk saved his ship against all odds.
    Kirk wouldn't let Spock die saving the ship instead of him.

    You can say that Kirk still doesn't deserve the captaincy. Fair enough.
    But Kirk did learn a few things or appeared to IMO.
     
  13. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    However, what RPJOB was referring to specifically did only take ten minutes or so. Well, okay, maybe a day in continuity, but still.

    Kirk is chewed out, stripped of rank, and sent back to the Academy. He goes to a bar to get drunk and maybe score.

    Pike shows up, cockblocks Kirk and informs him he's to be the Enterprise's first officer.

    Harrison attacks Starfleet midnight briefing. Pike is killed. Kirk defends himself with a fire hose.

    Marcus restores Kirk to captain.

    That part could have very easily have been removed from the movie with no impact on the storyline. A better way to have gone about the Kirk earns his command routine would have been to have him suspended for his Prime Directive violations until such time as a hearing can be held. However, then Harrison shows up, kills every Captain and first officer in the Sol system when he attacks the briefing, leaving Kirk the only officer left with any kind of command experience and therefore the only choice to deal with things.
     
  14. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't think that it was meant to show that Kirk earnt his captaincy by being one of the few captains left alive. He only really got his captaincy back by being a suitable patsy for Admiral Marcus.
    I think the captaincy was supposed to be earnt by his actions in the entire movie.

    As a Star Trek fan I thought the sudden captaincy at the end of ST09 was very surprising but thought they were trying to appeal to a younger audience.
    I felt actually Kirk had earned his captaincy a bit at the beginning of STID by not letting a civilisation die unnecessarily, and not having any deaths in his crew for 6 months. I thought them taking the Enterprise off him was a bit petty of Starfleet. If they were actually concerned about the Prime Directive they should have courtmartialled him
     
  15. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ironically, STD proved my point that there was not a single bit of character development in nuTrek 2009. Kirk is the very same bar brawler he was from the start. Spock NEVER learns to control his emotions. He turns into a psychopath in Trek 2009 when he gets annoyed, and he does it again in STD.
     
  16. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think psychopath is a bit much.
    Perhaps does his duty and defends the Federation and its interests against a guy who killed at least 40 people and is still a danger. Its not like Khan was going to retire to Ceti Alpha and start a new colony in peace.
     
  17. T'Ryl

    T'Ryl Ensign Newbie

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    You cannot say Spock never learned to control his emotions. We don't see enough of his normal life for that. Look at all that has happened to him. 1) He lost his Mother and, 2) His home world is GONE, thanks to STXI. Surak himself might say, "The cause was more than sufficient. Let us speak no further of it."

    I'm sorry, but I think ALL Vulcan's would find it hard to put aside their emotions if they were suddenly faced with the loss of their family, friends, home. Everything they knew is gone. As far as canon is concerned, thanks to Enterprise, it had been only a little over a 100 years that the true teachings of Surak had been found, and now, we must assume they too are lost. Because I do not recall seeing the Kir'Shara on any of the Vulcan elders when they beamed off.

    http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd1630.jpg

    [Converted to link. Pics posted as embedded images should be hosted on your own web space or on an image-hosting account registered to you. Also, that one was pretty gigantic; please try to resize large images to no more than 800 pixels in width. - M']

    Nope they hold NOTHING! IMO Nu!Vulcan Elders didn't care enough about Surak's teaching to SAVE it from permanent destruction. But then, JJ doesn't care enough about the original works to be concerned about them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2013
  18. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    Yes, Kirk did do all of those things. AFTER he became Captain again. Kirk once again went from attending the Academy (as ordered by Pike for disciplinary reasons) to being the Captain in the space of just a few hours. Ge did stop Harrison's attack on the meeting but isn't that something that any member of Starfleet would have done? You don't get to be Captain for doing your job. You get to be Captain by doing your job really, really well and showing that you have the ability to lead your crew.

    If the writers planned to address the complaints that Kirk got the captaincy too quickly in the first movie they really did a bad job of improving the situation in the second. As I said before, you could remove the whole demotion/promotion from the movie and literally nothing would change.
     
  19. Gsam

    Gsam Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    perhaps this is considered off topic or needs to be under another header, if so I apologize in advance for this error on my part.

    It was brought up that it is expected that Kirk and Carol Marcus will have a romance. I must preface this by saying I absolutely abhor the whole TWOK story line with regards to Kirk/Carol/David. That being said, though I hate to say this, perhaps if they do have a romance it will be because Carol has seen a maturation of Kirk. She is well aware of his reputation and what happened with her friend Christine Chapel.

    On the other hand, a mature Kirk would not become involved with a crewmember, and the same would go for Dr. McCoy. I'm thinking the main focus is the Spock/Uhura romance.

    Honestly, I just think that unless something drastically changes in the attitude of the writers a highly mature Kirk is unlikely.

    All this being said, I love the new characters except for Spock. I particularly enjoyed Chris Pine and Karl Urban and sincerely hope the next film leaves the romance to Spock and Uhura. I would like it to focus on friendships, the closeness of the crew.

    As I read this I am really thinking I am in the wrong place to post these thoughts but I will leave it up to the moderator.
     
  20. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

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    IIRC, during the escape but prior to them reaching the beam out point the Elder crushed by the falling statue was carrying something...