Cause and Effect - why didn't they...

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by King Daniel Beyond, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    ...just yell the solution as the Enterprise was about to explode, which would then be heard in the next loop's meeting when they played back the voices Beverly heard?
     
  2. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2001
    Because the information that made it through from loop to loop didn't seem to be complete. Indeed, most of the information that was crucial came from several seconds or minutes before the collision, and nothing from immediately after it - except for "abandon ship", I think.
     
  3. Zippo and Flask

    Zippo and Flask Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2013
    That would have been interesting. They should have hurriedly gotten the senior officers together in choir robes and had them singing the solution in southern gospel form.
     
  4. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Location:
    Melakon's grave
    Oh, we all know what would have happened. Picard would be the one to give the warning to the past due to his incomparable elocution skills with important speeches, and it would have gone like this: "Attention, this is Captain Jean-Luc Picard. The information I am about to give you is of high importance and necessary for the safety of the Enterprise. It is absolutely imperative that you immediately-- ." Boom.
     
  5. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Here's the part of Cause and Effect I don't get.

    The crew chooses not to turn back because 'Maybe turning back is what leads to the accident'.

    Yeah, maybe. But then why can't you then just choose a random direction calculated based on background radiation that would be guaranteed to be different each pass? That way if somehow you did generate the exact trajectory that led to the accident, you wouldn't on the next pass.
     
  6. Mario de Monti

    Mario de Monti Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Heidelberg, Germany
    There is actually a much, much simpler solution: Just change course! Someone (Riker?) actually suggested this in one of the meetings but this was being dismissed, since that change in course might just be what leads to the collision and brings them into the loop in the first place. The first time into the loop however, when they hadn´t been in it previously, they didn´t have this meeting (they only started to have it after they noticed the strange things) and thus no reason to change course! So changing course at that point would definitely have averted the collision ... but would also have deprived us of a very fun episode :)

    EDIT:
    @JirinPanthosa

    I didn´t see your post in time, guess I´ll have to type quicker!
     
  7. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2001
    "Turning back" couldn't have been the decision that caused their predicament. They'd not have any reason to turn back in the first iteration of the incident that lead to the loops. They'd be plowing ahead just like they always do. So Riker was being overly cautious and not particularly insightful with his comment.
     
  8. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    How would it be different each time? Is the radiation at stardate 45652.10975893 going to be different the second time through compared to the first time through?
     
  9. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    I don't get this.

    As you said, the first time through they had no reason to turn back, so that means that going forwards is what gets them into trouble. So how is Riker being "overly cautious and not particularly insightful" when he suggests doing something that will take the Enterprise away from the event that causes the incident?
     
  10. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2001
    No, Riker thought turning around is what got them in trouble. That's why they didn't turn around.
     
  11. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Location:
    Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
    Too bad no one tried to contact the nearest base until after the disaster was averted.
     
  12. Noname Given

    Noname Given Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Location:
    None Given
    IDK - Data said he isolated relevant parts; but come on - they couldn't get the audio of the final orders before 'abandon ship'? (Hell, he was able to count how many of the crew were doing what in his first sample pass in Main Engineering.)

    It's just more of Mr. Braga's hackneyed writing.
     
  13. The Librarian

    The Librarian Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    A better question is why the final decision is presented as either/or: use the tractor beam or vent the shuttlebay. Do both! Better yet, do both without spending thirty seconds debating it. The tractor beam would have worked fine if it had been used immediately.
     
  14. Noname Given

    Noname Given Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Location:
    None Given
    Honestly, that ALWAYS been my problem with Picard's style of Command. If Kirk was in Command, and an officer said 'collission course' -- Kirk would have IMMEDIATELY barked an order and the ship would have been saved (or not.)

    What's the first thing out of Picard's mouth when Worf says 'collision course'?

    Picard: "Suggestions?!"

    Sorry, but WTF? Is he the Captain or not?:rofl:
     
  15. jimbotron

    jimbotron Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    One thing bugged me about the episode. In the final loop, Data comprehends the "3", and has enough time to figure it out and depressurize the shuttlebay.

    The tractor beam would have already been on for several seconds (you can even hear Worf's panel). The other loops show that by the time the tractor beam activates, the Bozeman is already mere feet from the Enterprise.

    When we see the Enterprise push away from the Bozeman's path, we see the tractor beam never activated.
     
  16. Lt. Uhura-Brown

    Lt. Uhura-Brown Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Is that the one where they chose either the tractor beam or decompressing the cargo/shuttle bay (I forget which).

    Why the heck didn't they just do BOTH?
     
  17. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2007
    Actually the 1st thing out of his mouth was "Hail them", hoping they might be under power which the ENT-D was not. It didn't work & he had 30 seconds to find something that would. Entertaining a select few options wasn't really a terrible call, imho, one which put their fate in the inertia caused by random decompression, & the other by utilizing one of their tools to attempt to correct the problem. I can see why he'd initially go with the tractor beam. It seemed more reliable

    It's stuff like that which allows you to watch decisions unfold, that is why I enjoy the command dynamic on TNG versus TOS
     
  18. jimbotron

    jimbotron Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    And why exactly did all the power go out? Correction, not "all" the power, just the systems they would likely use in that situation. Can't use propulsion, can't use weapons, but CAN use a tractor beam, and can remotely open a shuttlebay.

    This is just the beginning of Brannon Braga Treknobabble plot contrivances, back when it was still cute. :lol:
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Let's not forget that they had faced this situation once before already - with all the misgivings brought up here!

    In "Time Squared", the heroes know there's a disaster waiting for them somewhere ahead, and there, too, Riker says that there's no point in turning away from it. LaForge justly confronts him over the claim, and Riker, Picard and Worf all respond by apparently quoting a standing theory of some sort that says time loops cannot be broken. Which is doubly weird, as these three wouldn't seem to have a prayer of out-theorizing LaForge, or Data (who stays strangely quiet in the debate).

    Well, the heroes did break the time loop there. So even if prevailing science supports Riker and Picard in "Cause and Effect", these very heroes should know that prevailing science is wrong...

    As for the "turning back is a certain way to avoid the loop" argument, it's far from watertight. Starships often make strange twists and turns for this reason or that, and it's perfectly possible that a straight course ahead would have saved the E-D in this particular situation. Just plow straight on, and when a situation emerges where common sense says you should turn (say, there's an emergency call from port, or a safe route around a black hole starboard), you ignore it and keep the helm locked dead ahead. Hell, this is the very thing that saved the ship in "Time Squared"!

    It's just that turning at that specific moment should have been a good idea. After all, at that specific moment (during the Observation Lounge debate), there was no obvious reason to turn, meaning a turn right then would definitely surprise Fate.

    But would that be enough? Perhaps a starship acting perfectly normally would be safe, but a ship turning for any reason at any time would fall victim to the time loop. After all, time loops supposedly don't happen all that often - so, logically, maintaining a routine should keep you safe, while trying something uncommon would present a high risk of something uncommon happening to you.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Tom

    Tom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Location:
    In your Mind!
    Evacuate all non essential personal to the saucer and separate the ship, have the saucer trail behind behind the stardrive section. This way the quicker stardrive section could deal with what was ahead of them and thus protect the saucer. Also it would be more unlikely for both vehicles to be destroyed.

    Unless they thought this was predestination paradox then separating the ship would not have been something they would have normally done during the first pass when the problem began.