Captain Solok

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Sadara, Mar 9, 2013.

  1. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Which is an unattainable goal as he's never going to get rid of all the happy people. What he's pursuing is illogical because it cannot be achieved. There were less violent ways of dealing with his issue, like Kohlinahr where no one smiles or even thinks happy thoughts.
     
  2. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    It was said way back in "Journey to Babel" that a Vulcan could find a logical reason to kill, so Chu'lak found his logical motive. Of course, his faculties were compromised anyway, and would've found any reason to be "logical", even something like wearing the left sock on the right foot would've been a logical reason to kill a person in his view. The guy had cracked.
     
  3. James T. Vader

    James T. Vader Lieutenant

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    I personally think modern day Trek writers hate Vulcans. From making Sarek go mad, to Spock crying to the brief appearance of Dr. Selar: NIght Doctor, to Racist Solok to Smile Hating Chulok to the Imperialistic Racist Vulcans of the 22nd century, maybe a Vulcan stole one of the writer's jobs at the lurpa factory or something.
     
  4. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I never thought of it that way, but you may be on to something. Not too many normal Vulcans after TOS. I'd also like to add that poor Vorik got rejected in Pon Farr like Spock. You'd think they could have done something different with him and maybe have a happy ending. Oh well.
     
  5. James T. Vader

    James T. Vader Lieutenant

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    Happy Ending, pon farr tee hee :devil:
     
  6. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Commodore Commodore

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    Vulcans can, and have, used logic to justify just about anything. I think Solok's overt rasicsm was piqued in the game, to pull Sisko's strings an irk him, because he somehow figured it was logical to rub it in.

    My question is how a guy like Solok managed to become a starship Captain in the first place. While we can debate whether or not the T'Kumbra (or Nebula-class starships in general) is an exploration-oriented craft, the truth is that ANY Starfleet officer, especially one of Captain rank, should be able to represent the ideals of the Federation to anyone - and the Solok we see in the episode is certainly not that.

    Perhaps Solok was a perfectly capable (and thusly decorated) officer for combat or local science missions, but piss poor at diplomacy or first contact. Maybe he NORMALLY appears as a nice enough guy for most interactions with non-Vulcans, but it's WITH SISKO that he gets all ridiculously asshat-ish? In other words, it's not Solok, but SISKO that is the source of his behavior? It's not like we have much to go on with him besides that episode. I for sure would want to report him if he was behaving that way to, say, the Admiralty, ANY foreign ambassador, or the civilians in general.

    Mark
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  7. LobsterAfternoon

    LobsterAfternoon Commander Red Shirt

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    I wouldn't say that Sisko is the source of the behavior, ultimately the decision to act like a dick or not is Solok's, not Sisko's. But I could easily see Sisko being a trigger for Solok in a way that other humans are not.
     
  8. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ IIRC, Sisko was drunk when he and Solok first met and got into their fight. If Sisko had been sober, he might have been less likely to provoke the situation, assuming he actually did. Sisko is not stupid; if provoked, he doesn't normally escalate the situation.
     
  9. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    To take that a step further. Is having an all Vulcan crew on a Federation starship a little politically incorrect? Could you imagine the naval USS Enterprise shipping out today with nothing but a Caucasian crew? The EO office would implode. What are they supposed to say during first contact situations? We represent an interplanetary alliance with hundreds of member races...only we don't think they can hold our jock strap so I've got only Vulcans on this ship. Starfleet should have told him that he should have stayed with the Vulcan space program if he couldn't be bothered to work alongside the Federation member races.

    That mentality flies in the face of everything the Federation stands for. IDIC...Ha!
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  10. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    But Sisko was stupid enough to agree to it. What did he think would happen?
     
  11. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    The idea of things always needing to be politically correct is probably dead in the future.

    Why can't he have a crew that he thinks is best for the job? Solok probably had an Admiral that pulled some strings to get him an all Vulcan crew. We also don't know how small or large his crew was.
     
  12. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    An all-Vulcan crew is no different than a (nearly) all-Human crew, though. Why should Humans be the only ones with their own starships?

    And the matter of environment must be taken into consideration, too. Vulcans probably prefer different conditions than Humans, or Andorians for that matter, and asking all these disparate species to serve on a starship together is just asking for everyone to be uncomfortable. The Andorians like the cold, the Vulcans like the heat, the Humans like humidity, the Horta prefer rock, etc etc etc. If they all have to compromise on the environmental controls, can you imagine the havoc that would create?

    Finally, why would the rest of Starfleet want to serve with snobby and stodgy old Vulcans? Better to stuff them all on their own ship and let them alone.
     
  13. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    Well I've just said why. Also, there has been no indication of any of those explanations as applied to the setting of the show. I don't think I've seen an all Human ship but my opinion would be the same regarding that as well. Remember that Chancellor Azetbur accused the Federation of being somewhat Terran centric in TUC.

    Starfleet ships should represent the UFP not the planet Vulcan or any other member race. The Federation prides itself on being a utopia on harmonious coexistence with several species. I would think that presenting Starfleet as such would be an important image to project. Having an all Vulcan ship (especially with a guy like Solok in command) is not representative of the ideals of Starfleet in general. I don't know the exact size of his crew but it is a Nebula class staship right? Not exactly a shuttlecraft.

    I'm not that worked up about it but I guess I just never saw the point in having a ship like that. Why did they join Starfleet at all considering they could have gone to the (Superior?) Vulcan Science Academy and joined a Vulcan ship. All of the other races I've seen just simply deal with the environments on a Federation starship and get posted as needs arrive.
     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You'll notice that I edited that message. ;)

    I forgot that it was Sisko who challenged Solok. And like I said, Sisko was drunk (understandably so, since it was a cadet bar :p ). If Sisko had been totally sober, he would not have done that. Sisko is not normally volatile, except in extraordinary circumstances.

    The T'Kumbra was a Nebula-class ship. IIRC, those have at least 700 crewmembers.
     
  15. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    The precedent for Vulcan-only crews was established in TOS, though. So it's only a case of following precedent. Why one-species crews? I imagine that not all crews are sent out to represent the Federation diplomatically. If Solok's ship was not sent out to explore, then his "attitude" is irrelevant. Besides, it was war time, and no one was out "representing" the Federation except with phasers and photon torpedos!

    The problem with Solok is that he was only seen with respect to Sisko. He wasn't developed outside of his relationship with Sisko. If we only saw Spock interacting with McCoy, what would our view of Spock be? I think Solok is probably more likable than he was depicted as being - he'd pretty much have to be.
     
  16. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I wondered that myself. Doesn't seem all that logical to join Starfleet if you're not interested in interacting much with members of other races. And the way Solok acts, you'd think the T'Kumbra was a less emotional, but equally snobbish version of Red Squad.
     
  17. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Every captain thinks their crew is the best in the fleet - can't fault Solok for thinking it, too.

    Besides, Solok didn't like Sisko. It is not established that he didn't "like" any other race in existence. There are probably other Federation members that are more like Vulcans than like Humans; why wouldn't he want to interact with them? Are we saying that Solok shouldn't have joined Starfleet because there are Humans in it?
     
  18. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    Yes but what ships set out to do and what they are forced to deal with are too drastic things. A Captain has to be prepared for a first Contact, a pitched battle, a scientific discovery, etc. I don't see CAPT Solok joining Starfleet just to whoop some Jem'Hadar ass.

    I highly doubt that the T'Kumbra was assembled soley for the Dominion War. Like everyone else they were forced to join the fight for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant.

    * This was for your earlier post Pavonis. I got cut in on this one.
     
  19. lvsxy808

    lvsxy808 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I remember Tim Russ (Tuvok actor) saying in an interview that logic is not a reason to do something, it is only a method of doing something. A Vulcan can convince himself of the logic of anything, and will then proceed to do that thing in the most logical way he can.


    I really think that's overstating it. The fact is that drama relies on conflict, and when you've got a character whose very concept is to not show emotion, it's very difficult to write an interesting story about that character without challenging that and forcing them into conflict. The reason those characters seem "mad" is simply because that was the best way to get drama out of a congenitally non-dramatic character.

    Besides which, there were plenty of normal Vulcans. Selar was normal - a little sassy perhaps, but not crazy. Dr T'Pan from "Suspicions." Adm Savar from "Conspiracy." Cpt Satelk from "The First Duty." Sisko's captain on the Saratoga from "Emissary." Adm T'Lara from "Rules of Engagement." All normal Vulcans, but you forget about them because they weren't very memorable characters. You remember the "crazy" Vulcans because they had actual personalities to remember.

    And I really do think that people over-romanticize Spock as the be-all-and-end-all of Vulcans (just like people over-romanticize the original Star Wars trilogy when it really wasn't that good). Spock was a interesting character only when his logical control was tested and challenged.


    Exactly what the starship Titan from its eponymous novel series is supposed to explore. Starfleet knows it has been a bit too heavy on the all-one-species ships, but it's just easier to do that because of the environmental issues and interpersonal issues. Titan is designed to confront that and find a way to work past it by creating a crew comprised of species of different gravities, atmospheres, metabolisms and philosophies and forcing them to figure it out.

    .
     
  20. LobsterAfternoon

    LobsterAfternoon Commander Red Shirt

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    It's possible Solok ended up with an all Vulcan crew through no nefarious means. We've seen that Starfleet Captains have a lot of discretion when it comes to picking their senior staff. Perhaps when Solok took command, he brought along a few Vulcans that he had a lot of respect for. Maybe the existing crew didn't enjoy having to serve under a chain of command that was all uptight Vulcans, and requested transfers out, while Vulcans serving on other ships heard good things and requested transfers in.
     

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